6 ms·

Elon Musk on voting fraud: Mail-in and drop box ballots should not be allowed

13 points by koolba 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
He goes slightly more tinfoil hat than the headline here suggests: > the system is designed to make it impossible to prove fraud. Who designed it this way Elon? Was it the Jews again? The ones you claimed were conspiring to import inferior immigrants? Also, worth noting this isn't a one off, he's said similar things about voting and immigrants repeatedly, echoing existing conspiracy theories. I like this refreshingly direct take: "Elon Musk keeps tweeting bullshit about Arizona’s elections" > Experts like Maricopa County Recorder Stephen Richer are trying to teach the tech billionaire, but he doesn't want to learn https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/elon-musk-tweeting-misinformation-about-arizona-elections-19411184 https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/elon-musk-tweeting-misi... edit to add an exhaustive factual debunking of his claims on elections: https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2024/elon-musk-immigration-voting-this-is-actually-happening/ https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2024/elon-musk-immigra...
- water9 2y ago
  The people who designed it this way are the people who think that getting a voter ID is racist because somehow minorities are not as smart or capable as white people. Also no matter how many times you call a conspiracy theory non-citizens are counted in the census which affect the electoral votes each state gets, and also the representation in the House of Representatives. Even if they don’t vote, they still overwhelmingly impact blue states and sanctuary cities by inflating their representation by the tune of about 20 electoral votes. https://pointofview.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ID-Not-Necessary.jpg https://pointofview.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ID-Not-Ne...
  - hn_acker 2y ago
    > The people who designed it this way are the people who think that getting a voter ID is racist because somehow minorities are not as smart or capable as white people. The ACLU has a handy 2-page document [1] explaining how voter ID laws get implemented and enforced in a racist way. It's not theoretical. Here's an excerpt, but you'll need the rest of the doc for the full picture. > The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office. And a year after Alabama's strict voter ID law went into effect, state officials tried to shut down 31 driver's license offices in majority-Black counties, which would have forced rural and minority voters to travel further to access licenses. [1] https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-f...
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    Everyone in the US, regardless of status, is represented by Representatives. Felons can’t vote in many states, yet they’re still counted and represented in Congress. Voter fraud is a non-issue. Or more so a racist, isolationist issue.
    - water9 2y ago
      People who are here illegally should not be represented because they don't pay income tax. PERIOD. If you are too simple minded to not see how easy it is to commit voter fraud you are not very bright
      - nullindividual 2y ago
        Many illegals/undocumented do indeed pay income tax [0]. Another myth, along with the voter fraud myth. You do know that most voter fraud brought forward to trial were committed by Americans, right [1]? Should the American-born poor also not be represented due to the amount of refunds they get year-after-year? Should those on SSDI not be represented? Felons, where restricted by State law? The US Constitution applies to everyone, not just Green Card holders/American citizens [2]. And thank god, imagine if a political party could arbitrarily declare that eh, water9 is no longer an American citizen... jail for life without trial. The 14th Amendment says, in part "Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed." [3] You cannot have a 'whole number' unless you count everyone of any status. Your comment is inappropriate, there's no need for personal attacks. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-cec/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-ta... [1] https://apnews.com/article/voter-fraud-election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-7fcb6f134e528fee8237c7601db3328f https://apnews.com/article/voter-fraud-election-2020-joe-bid... [2] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-rights-do-undocumented-immigrants-have https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-ri... [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
- shrimp_emoji 2y ago
  Doesn't the fact that he also loves The Culture count for anything?
- verdverm 2y ago
  Stephen Richer has many great tweet threads showing how the Maricopa system works. He had one that debunked an attempt to create a misleading post about fraud (a right-wing personality intentionally changed their address on the day their ballot was mailed, got two, and tried to claim multiple ballots... To which Stephen pointed out the serial number has a suffix such that the first would not be accepted even if submitted)
Bostonian 2y ago
In the France and U.K., election results are known the next day. The U.S. should be like that too, with mail-in and drop box ballots counted on election night. Getting results promptly would raise confidence in the fairness of the result.
Arnt 2y ago
This is so weird. I'm Norwegian and live in Germany. Both countries allow mail-in votes, Norway also allows voting elsewhere. Both countries avoid fraud reliably and deliver reliable results on the next day. Germany's best, I think (all votes counted twice, at low cost, etc) but really, this is so weird. Someone who understands rocket science wants to ban something despite existence proof that the ban is unnecessary. Weird.
- rstuart4133 2y ago
  That's a very first world view. Vote fraud occurs on a massive scale in some countries. It's not just fake votes. Two name two others types of fraud there is also vote buying and coercing people to vote a certain way. An example of the latter in patriarchal societies is the husband handling all worldly matters for his wife, including voting. What protects Germany and Norway isn't your voting system. As Elon says it's poor. It's the other institutions and social mores you have. In countries without those safety nets, mail-in voting is truly an open invitation to by-pass the democratic process. So lets turn the question on it's head. If you consider the integrity of the voting system to be critical to maintaining a democracy, why would you risk not having a robust voting system - even if it looks like you don't need it now? My definition for a good voting system is it makes it impossible to buy a vote. Clearly mail in votes don't meet that. Drop boxes need some pretty good voting place security to prevent the "I give you a filled in ballot slip on your way it, you give me a blank ballot slip on the way out, and then I pay you" caper. Computerised vote casting can make that impossible.
  - Two4 2y ago
    The thing that you're ignoring is how very little voter fraud occurs in the US. The countries you refer to, likely third world backwater banana republics, tend to engage in election fraud rather than voter fraud. Trying to co-ordinate a massive conspiracy with many thousands of voters is highly visible to any sort of intelligence apparatus worth a donut, and requires buy-in from government institutions to pull off. It's simply much easier to skew counts or intercept ballot boxes than to engage in meaningful amounts of voter fraud.

13 points by koolba 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

He goes slightly more tinfoil hat than the headline here suggests: > the system is designed to make it impossible to prove fraud. Who designed it this way Elon? Was it the Jews again? The ones you claimed were conspiring to import inferior immigrants? Also, worth noting this isn't a one off, he's said similar things about voting and immigrants repeatedly, echoing existing conspiracy theories. I like this refreshingly direct take: "Elon Musk keeps tweeting bullshit about Arizona’s elections" > Experts like Maricopa County Recorder Stephen Richer are trying to teach the tech billionaire, but he doesn't want to learn https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/elon-musk-tweeting-misinformation-about-arizona-elections-19411184 https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/elon-musk-tweeting-misi... edit to add an exhaustive factual debunking of his claims on elections: https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2024/elon-musk-immigration-voting-this-is-actually-happening/ https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2024/elon-musk-immigra...

water9 2y ago
The people who designed it this way are the people who think that getting a voter ID is racist because somehow minorities are not as smart or capable as white people. Also no matter how many times you call a conspiracy theory non-citizens are counted in the census which affect the electoral votes each state gets, and also the representation in the House of Representatives. Even if they don’t vote, they still overwhelmingly impact blue states and sanctuary cities by inflating their representation by the tune of about 20 electoral votes. https://pointofview.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ID-Not-Necessary.jpg https://pointofview.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ID-Not-Ne...
- hn_acker 2y ago
  > The people who designed it this way are the people who think that getting a voter ID is racist because somehow minorities are not as smart or capable as white people. The ACLU has a handy 2-page document [1] explaining how voter ID laws get implemented and enforced in a racist way. It's not theoretical. Here's an excerpt, but you'll need the rest of the doc for the full picture. > The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office. And a year after Alabama's strict voter ID law went into effect, state officials tried to shut down 31 driver's license offices in majority-Black counties, which would have forced rural and minority voters to travel further to access licenses. [1] https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-f...
- nullindividual 2y ago
  Everyone in the US, regardless of status, is represented by Representatives. Felons can’t vote in many states, yet they’re still counted and represented in Congress. Voter fraud is a non-issue. Or more so a racist, isolationist issue.
  - water9 2y ago
    People who are here illegally should not be represented because they don't pay income tax. PERIOD. If you are too simple minded to not see how easy it is to commit voter fraud you are not very bright
    - nullindividual 2y ago
      Many illegals/undocumented do indeed pay income tax [0]. Another myth, along with the voter fraud myth. You do know that most voter fraud brought forward to trial were committed by Americans, right [1]? Should the American-born poor also not be represented due to the amount of refunds they get year-after-year? Should those on SSDI not be represented? Felons, where restricted by State law? The US Constitution applies to everyone, not just Green Card holders/American citizens [2]. And thank god, imagine if a political party could arbitrarily declare that eh, water9 is no longer an American citizen... jail for life without trial. The 14th Amendment says, in part "Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed." [3] You cannot have a 'whole number' unless you count everyone of any status. Your comment is inappropriate, there's no need for personal attacks. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-cec/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-ta... [1] https://apnews.com/article/voter-fraud-election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-7fcb6f134e528fee8237c7601db3328f https://apnews.com/article/voter-fraud-election-2020-joe-bid... [2] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-rights-do-undocumented-immigrants-have https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-ri... [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
shrimp_emoji 2y ago
Doesn't the fact that he also loves The Culture count for anything?
verdverm 2y ago
Stephen Richer has many great tweet threads showing how the Maricopa system works. He had one that debunked an attempt to create a misleading post about fraud (a right-wing personality intentionally changed their address on the day their ballot was mailed, got two, and tried to claim multiple ballots... To which Stephen pointed out the serial number has a suffix such that the first would not be accepted even if submitted)

Bostonian 2y ago

In the France and U.K., election results are known the next day. The U.S. should be like that too, with mail-in and drop box ballots counted on election night. Getting results promptly would raise confidence in the fairness of the result.

Arnt 2y ago

This is so weird. I'm Norwegian and live in Germany. Both countries allow mail-in votes, Norway also allows voting elsewhere. Both countries avoid fraud reliably and deliver reliable results on the next day. Germany's best, I think (all votes counted twice, at low cost, etc) but really, this is so weird. Someone who understands rocket science wants to ban something despite existence proof that the ban is unnecessary. Weird.

rstuart4133 2y ago
That's a very first world view. Vote fraud occurs on a massive scale in some countries. It's not just fake votes. Two name two others types of fraud there is also vote buying and coercing people to vote a certain way. An example of the latter in patriarchal societies is the husband handling all worldly matters for his wife, including voting. What protects Germany and Norway isn't your voting system. As Elon says it's poor. It's the other institutions and social mores you have. In countries without those safety nets, mail-in voting is truly an open invitation to by-pass the democratic process. So lets turn the question on it's head. If you consider the integrity of the voting system to be critical to maintaining a democracy, why would you risk not having a robust voting system - even if it looks like you don't need it now? My definition for a good voting system is it makes it impossible to buy a vote. Clearly mail in votes don't meet that. Drop boxes need some pretty good voting place security to prevent the "I give you a filled in ballot slip on your way it, you give me a blank ballot slip on the way out, and then I pay you" caper. Computerised vote casting can make that impossible.
- Two4 2y ago
  The thing that you're ignoring is how very little voter fraud occurs in the US. The countries you refer to, likely third world backwater banana republics, tend to engage in election fraud rather than voter fraud. Trying to co-ordinate a massive conspiracy with many thousands of voters is highly visible to any sort of intelligence apparatus worth a donut, and requires buy-in from government institutions to pull off. It's simply much easier to skew counts or intercept ballot boxes than to engage in meaningful amounts of voter fraud.