4 ms·

Electric Vehicle Batteries Surprising New Source of 'Forever Chemical' Pollution

28 points by hammock 2y ago

BizarroLand 2y ago
This is more fear mongering, a giant nothing burger. There will be huge advantages to recycling these batteries as the technologies come out, and dealing with the PFAS will be on the recycler.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  > There will be > will be on the recycler Given the current state of recycling in general, I doubt this is a nothing burger.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    Lead-acid batteries have very good recycling rates.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      Specifically, 99%.
    - jmclnx 2y ago
      Yes, that is because in many places it is a law, plus recycling them is a money making industry.
      - adrianN 2y ago
        I predict that it will be the same for lithium in the near future.
        EricE 2y ago
        Based on what? Where are the economics to back that feeling up?
        adrianN 2y ago
        The first pilot plants are being built, e.g. https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-shows-95-efficiency-in-battery-recycling-pilot/ https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-show...
        westurner 2y ago
        Redwood Materials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redwood_Materials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redwood_Materials : > In March 2023 Redwood claimed to have recovered more than 95% of important metals (incl. lithium, cobalt, nickel and copper) from 500,000 lb (230,000 kg) of old NiMH and Li-Ion packs. [10] That's without $10K humanoid robots sorting through electronics and removing batteries IIUC. Recovering rare earths from electronics waste should be even more profitable now. Just look at Copenhill; how many inputs and how many outputs? "Turning waste into gold" (2024) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/02/240229124612.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/02/240229124612.h... : > Researchers have recovered gold from electronic waste. Their highly sustainable new method is based on a protein fibril sponge, which the scientists derive from whey, a food industry byproduct. ETH Zurich researchers have recovered the precious metal from electronic waste. "[Star-shaped] Gold nanoparticles kill cancer – but not as thought" (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40819864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40819864
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      There is a large cash deposit for recycling them, not so with lithium
- FerretFred 2y ago
  Oh, so you mean it'll be shipped out to the nearest 3rd-world country for recycling, AKA burning in open pits. Someone else's problem for sure. Edit: related example https://www.utoronto.ca/news/more-developed-countries-dumping-toxic-e-waste-global-south-u-t-researchers-find https://www.utoronto.ca/news/more-developed-countries-dumpin...
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  Did you even read the article? The contaminants are found around the battery manufacturing plant. Unrelated to the recycling that is never gonna happen anyway
- p_j_w 2y ago
  This amounts to "Don't worry, mommy and daddy will take care of it." It is not a serious argument.
zecg 2y ago
> The study said only about 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, and by 2040, there could be some 8 million tons of lithium-ion battery waste. That can't be true?
- adrianN 2y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if currently only a small number of batteries are recycled. I would be extremely surprised if the same is true in ten years.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  What percentage of lithium iron batteries that have crossed your desk ended up recycled?
  - kuschku 2y ago
    All? It's not like you can throw them in the trash, so where else would I bring them except to the battery recycling collection point?
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      In Montreal, the Eco Centre accepts batteries and then “sends them to a recycler” It’s almost impossible to know what that actually means. if you look up a local company like li-cycle all they do is grind up the batteries into a powder, which is then sold to off takers and licycles case these off takers, actually only extract, nickel and cobalt from the batteries. This is the tip of the iceberg. There’s no way to know what actually happens to your battery after it is given to the city. Notably, plastic recycling is fake, and my city just makes a giant pile of plastic separate from the giant pile of garbage.
      - kuschku 2y ago
        > Notably, plastic recycling is fake, and my city just makes a giant pile of plastic separate from the giant pile of garbage. For some measures of "fake". The German PET bottle deposit scheme works relatively well, as the material collected is pure PET with very little contamination. For pretty much every other type of plastic, "recycling" usually means thermal use, aka burning it for district heating.
FerretFred 2y ago
https://archive.is/kVRfu https://archive.is/kVRfu
jmclnx 2y ago
This does not surprise me, I doubt the impact is great right now, but in 5 or 10 years I tend to think it will be. To dispose of regular batteries, like AA, you are suppose to drop them off to a recycle place. EV Batteries are much larger and contain more heavy metals. Really, we (people) are doing all we can to avoid doing anything real about Climate Change. Many do something, but not to the point were it lessens how you live. We really need to push Mass Transit, Walking, Bicycling and other forms of transport. The only real draw back is the loss of some convenience. But 140 years ago, people lived OK without Autos.
- FredFS456 2y ago
  I have never owned a car (lived in urban areas all my adult life) and I find that when I visit my parents in their suburban home, everything is less convenient when driving is involved.
  - mtalantikite 2y ago
    Part of me lives in a walk-able city because I'm incapable of buying everything I need to make dinner in one go at a grocery store. I inevitably have to run down the block to grab some random thing I didn't realize we were out of. Only slightly kidding -- maybe I'd learn if it took 15 minutes in a car instead of 45 seconds on foot though.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  It's actually a better way to live. I don't know how to express the freedom and joy that comes from having your kid say "I'm biking to my friend's house!" instead of "Can you drive me to my friend's house?". Not to mention that I made a lot of my current friends by just meeting them while walking around town. And cities designed for cars aren't even easier to get around, because cars may be ten times faster than walking, but once you add all the parking, roads, shoulders, etc. to make it easier to drive, everything is ten times farther apart. I really wish it were easier to convey that a low-car life is a much higher quality of life.
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  It’s illegal to dispose of your EV battery in such a way that it ends up in landfill. At least in the EU. It’s also very dumb as companies would me missing out on a lot of money by processing those batteries for their precious components. Most of the lithium ion waste comes from consumer electronics still, not EV. Things like laptops and phones being tossed, instead of taken to appropriate recycling facilities. I think this will change in time as it becomes more normalized to do so, maybe even a dedicated “electronics collection pickup” recycling program.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
It's a legitimate concern obviously because of the scale of the problem But come on this is business insider, a click bait farm, and likely this a FUD shadow campaign like windmill blades, bird deaths, and the like.

28 points by hammock 2y ago

This is more fear mongering, a giant nothing burger. There will be huge advantages to recycling these batteries as the technologies come out, and dealing with the PFAS will be on the recycler.

cassianoleal 2y ago
> There will be > will be on the recycler Given the current state of recycling in general, I doubt this is a nothing burger.
- adrianN 2y ago
  Lead-acid batteries have very good recycling rates.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Specifically, 99%.
  - jmclnx 2y ago
    Yes, that is because in many places it is a law, plus recycling them is a money making industry.
    - adrianN 2y ago
      I predict that it will be the same for lithium in the near future.
      - EricE 2y ago
        Based on what? Where are the economics to back that feeling up?
        adrianN 2y ago
        The first pilot plants are being built, e.g. https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-shows-95-efficiency-in-battery-recycling-pilot/ https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-show...
        westurner 2y ago
        Redwood Materials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redwood_Materials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redwood_Materials : > In March 2023 Redwood claimed to have recovered more than 95% of important metals (incl. lithium, cobalt, nickel and copper) from 500,000 lb (230,000 kg) of old NiMH and Li-Ion packs. [10] That's without $10K humanoid robots sorting through electronics and removing batteries IIUC. Recovering rare earths from electronics waste should be even more profitable now. Just look at Copenhill; how many inputs and how many outputs? "Turning waste into gold" (2024) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/02/240229124612.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/02/240229124612.h... : > Researchers have recovered gold from electronic waste. Their highly sustainable new method is based on a protein fibril sponge, which the scientists derive from whey, a food industry byproduct. ETH Zurich researchers have recovered the precious metal from electronic waste. "[Star-shaped] Gold nanoparticles kill cancer – but not as thought" (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40819864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40819864
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    There is a large cash deposit for recycling them, not so with lithium
FerretFred 2y ago
Oh, so you mean it'll be shipped out to the nearest 3rd-world country for recycling, AKA burning in open pits. Someone else's problem for sure. Edit: related example https://www.utoronto.ca/news/more-developed-countries-dumping-toxic-e-waste-global-south-u-t-researchers-find https://www.utoronto.ca/news/more-developed-countries-dumpin...
idunnoman1222 2y ago
Did you even read the article? The contaminants are found around the battery manufacturing plant. Unrelated to the recycling that is never gonna happen anyway
p_j_w 2y ago
This amounts to "Don't worry, mommy and daddy will take care of it." It is not a serious argument.

zecg 2y ago

> The study said only about 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, and by 2040, there could be some 8 million tons of lithium-ion battery waste. That can't be true?

adrianN 2y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if currently only a small number of batteries are recycled. I would be extremely surprised if the same is true in ten years.
idunnoman1222 2y ago
What percentage of lithium iron batteries that have crossed your desk ended up recycled?
- kuschku 2y ago
  All? It's not like you can throw them in the trash, so where else would I bring them except to the battery recycling collection point?
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    In Montreal, the Eco Centre accepts batteries and then “sends them to a recycler” It’s almost impossible to know what that actually means. if you look up a local company like li-cycle all they do is grind up the batteries into a powder, which is then sold to off takers and licycles case these off takers, actually only extract, nickel and cobalt from the batteries. This is the tip of the iceberg. There’s no way to know what actually happens to your battery after it is given to the city. Notably, plastic recycling is fake, and my city just makes a giant pile of plastic separate from the giant pile of garbage.
    - kuschku 2y ago
      > Notably, plastic recycling is fake, and my city just makes a giant pile of plastic separate from the giant pile of garbage. For some measures of "fake". The German PET bottle deposit scheme works relatively well, as the material collected is pure PET with very little contamination. For pretty much every other type of plastic, "recycling" usually means thermal use, aka burning it for district heating.

FerretFred 2y ago

https://archive.is/kVRfu https://archive.is/kVRfu

jmclnx 2y ago

This does not surprise me, I doubt the impact is great right now, but in 5 or 10 years I tend to think it will be. To dispose of regular batteries, like AA, you are suppose to drop them off to a recycle place. EV Batteries are much larger and contain more heavy metals. Really, we (people) are doing all we can to avoid doing anything real about Climate Change. Many do something, but not to the point were it lessens how you live. We really need to push Mass Transit, Walking, Bicycling and other forms of transport. The only real draw back is the loss of some convenience. But 140 years ago, people lived OK without Autos.

FredFS456 2y ago
I have never owned a car (lived in urban areas all my adult life) and I find that when I visit my parents in their suburban home, everything is less convenient when driving is involved.
- mtalantikite 2y ago
  Part of me lives in a walk-able city because I'm incapable of buying everything I need to make dinner in one go at a grocery store. I inevitably have to run down the block to grab some random thing I didn't realize we were out of. Only slightly kidding -- maybe I'd learn if it took 15 minutes in a car instead of 45 seconds on foot though.
CalRobert 2y ago
It's actually a better way to live. I don't know how to express the freedom and joy that comes from having your kid say "I'm biking to my friend's house!" instead of "Can you drive me to my friend's house?". Not to mention that I made a lot of my current friends by just meeting them while walking around town. And cities designed for cars aren't even easier to get around, because cars may be ten times faster than walking, but once you add all the parking, roads, shoulders, etc. to make it easier to drive, everything is ten times farther apart. I really wish it were easier to convey that a low-car life is a much higher quality of life.
lovethevoid 2y ago
It’s illegal to dispose of your EV battery in such a way that it ends up in landfill. At least in the EU. It’s also very dumb as companies would me missing out on a lot of money by processing those batteries for their precious components. Most of the lithium ion waste comes from consumer electronics still, not EV. Things like laptops and phones being tossed, instead of taken to appropriate recycling facilities. I think this will change in time as it becomes more normalized to do so, maybe even a dedicated “electronics collection pickup” recycling program.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

It's a legitimate concern obviously because of the scale of the problem But come on this is business insider, a click bait farm, and likely this a FUD shadow campaign like windmill blades, bird deaths, and the like.