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Ten years? Try one year. I've had massive problems upgrading Gradle between consecutive major versions despite always trying to stick to the rules (as I underst

Ten years? Try one year. I've had massive problems upgrading Gradle between consecutive major versions despite always trying to stick to the rules (as I understand them) and never using deprecated or experimental features. Maven simply doesn't have these problems. Search for Gradle discussions on HN if you're interested, the rough consensus of this site (if there is such a thing) seems to confirm my experience.

brnt 2y ago
Funny, I'd've expected the opposite in the Java ecosystem. As someone entirely outside of it: why would one then use Gradle? Haven't seen a single positive post here yet.
- vips7L 2y ago
  Gradle has faster builds due to the build daemon it uses and it has a better CLI interface. Starting a new project is just: gradle init. Some people use it just because XML == bad too.
- zmmmmm 2y ago
  Gradle makes it incredibly fast and easy to bootstrap a simple project. Then, it's extraordinarily flexible after that in how you can use Groovy to add custom logic into how your build works. There are a lot of things I like about it. What I really hate though is that it's designed around a principle of everything happening 'magically' such that when something goes wrong it is nearly impossible to mechanistically understand what happened and how to fix it. It really leans into the most negative aspects of Groovy and amplifies them.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
    I usually try to gen out a graphviz dotfile of a “typical” Gradle project’s task dependency in an org to demonstrate to people how much magic happens under the hood. I often have to choose the smallest, simplest project or the graphviz engine will choke on the hundreds to thousands of nodes and dependencies used.
    - kaba0 2y ago
      Aren’t you displaying each and every file? Like, gradle doesn’t have all that many tasks in a default java project.
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
        Just the default task dependency tree for a build.gradle/settings.grade. And sure, a default project might be pretty simple but add one or two plugins and it gets very unsimple very quickly. And no JVM project is using Gradle without leveraging at least a few plugins. At my last job I did this for a simple generic cron style service project (perhaps maybe 10-15 Java files, including tests) and still ended up with a task dependency tree of hundreds of nodes, due to the plugins.
  - kaba0 2y ago
    While I’m not a big kotlin fan, I do believe that using it as a config language is a good direction.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  Adding onto the things that other people said: Gradle is an extremely powerful build tool. It has three tiered caching (project wide, machine wide, remote, with fallbacks), complex DAG resolution, and in general is just really good at building jvm stuff. It can handle nearly every weird way that you could possibly dream of to structure your project. It’s generally not super buggy. It’s generally pretty fast if you know what you are doing. There are years and years of optimizations built into it. It is the tool to build enterprise jvm code. If you go to a jvm shop at an adult company that isn’t stuck in 2006, they are using Gradle. The downside is that it is insanely complex, and nearly impenetrable for newbies. It’s also for the same reason pretty Perl-like (a “write-only” language)
  - kaba0 2y ago
    I would also add that there isn’t too many players in its category of general build tools. Like, sure, you can have a go-specific build tool that is more ergonomic, but it chokes the instant you add a c dependency. I guess there is only bazel and gradle that are on this level of capability, being able to compile polyglot code bases. Probably also cmake, but compared to that, gradle looks as if it was designed by God itself, even though it severely lacks in ergonomics.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
      Yeah, I’ll also add is that while Gradle is technically a generic build tool, in practice the ecosystem realistically only makes sense to use for JVM code. All of the JS, Docker, Python, other plugins have significant issues due to only being supported/maintained by a few people. As well as Gradle giving a lot of JVM based caching for tasks set up as part of vanilla Gradle, that aren’t set up in these other ecosystems. I would argue Buildkit is also trying to be this kind of tool but is significantly less mature.
  - SpaghettiCthulu 2y ago
    I strongly disagree. Gradle is extremely buggy where it matters the most. For instance, if I cancel a build part-way through and then run it again, gradle assumes that the in-progress JavaCompile task is completed, and proceeds to generate a Jar file containing resources but no classes. To fix this, I am forced to make useless changes, or clear my entire user-level gradle cache.
- Tainnor 2y ago
  One of the main reasons for me is that incremental compilation is essentially broken on maven, which may matter on large enough projects and if you keep waiting for CI builds. That, and the fact that anything slightly out of the ordinary that you'd want to do with maven requires a plugin - or, since most people won't bother, just extra scripts on top of maven, or no automation at all.
- krzyk 2y ago
  because it was new and shiny, people complained that maven doesnt allow arbitrary code to be executed in build, etc. And now they end up with what Ant was like.
  - kaba0 2y ago
    If you think it’s like Ant, then you have absolutely zero understanding of gradle. Only the config step is “turing-complete”, which outputs a build graph that is cached and used to do every further step, finding the tasks that need recompilation, etc.
    - krzyk 2y ago
      "only the config step" - isn't that the only step users of gradle should be interested in? If config is a code, then it makes it more complicated in the long run (people are people and will add complexity to it) - there is a reason why they work on declarative syntax.

brnt 2y ago

Funny, I'd've expected the opposite in the Java ecosystem. As someone entirely outside of it: why would one then use Gradle? Haven't seen a single positive post here yet.

vips7L 2y ago
Gradle has faster builds due to the build daemon it uses and it has a better CLI interface. Starting a new project is just: gradle init. Some people use it just because XML == bad too.
zmmmmm 2y ago
Gradle makes it incredibly fast and easy to bootstrap a simple project. Then, it's extraordinarily flexible after that in how you can use Groovy to add custom logic into how your build works. There are a lot of things I like about it. What I really hate though is that it's designed around a principle of everything happening 'magically' such that when something goes wrong it is nearly impossible to mechanistically understand what happened and how to fix it. It really leans into the most negative aspects of Groovy and amplifies them.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  I usually try to gen out a graphviz dotfile of a “typical” Gradle project’s task dependency in an org to demonstrate to people how much magic happens under the hood. I often have to choose the smallest, simplest project or the graphviz engine will choke on the hundreds to thousands of nodes and dependencies used.
  - kaba0 2y ago
    Aren’t you displaying each and every file? Like, gradle doesn’t have all that many tasks in a default java project.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
      Just the default task dependency tree for a build.gradle/settings.grade. And sure, a default project might be pretty simple but add one or two plugins and it gets very unsimple very quickly. And no JVM project is using Gradle without leveraging at least a few plugins. At my last job I did this for a simple generic cron style service project (perhaps maybe 10-15 Java files, including tests) and still ended up with a task dependency tree of hundreds of nodes, due to the plugins.
- kaba0 2y ago
  While I’m not a big kotlin fan, I do believe that using it as a config language is a good direction.
SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
Adding onto the things that other people said: Gradle is an extremely powerful build tool. It has three tiered caching (project wide, machine wide, remote, with fallbacks), complex DAG resolution, and in general is just really good at building jvm stuff. It can handle nearly every weird way that you could possibly dream of to structure your project. It’s generally not super buggy. It’s generally pretty fast if you know what you are doing. There are years and years of optimizations built into it. It is the tool to build enterprise jvm code. If you go to a jvm shop at an adult company that isn’t stuck in 2006, they are using Gradle. The downside is that it is insanely complex, and nearly impenetrable for newbies. It’s also for the same reason pretty Perl-like (a “write-only” language)
- kaba0 2y ago
  I would also add that there isn’t too many players in its category of general build tools. Like, sure, you can have a go-specific build tool that is more ergonomic, but it chokes the instant you add a c dependency. I guess there is only bazel and gradle that are on this level of capability, being able to compile polyglot code bases. Probably also cmake, but compared to that, gradle looks as if it was designed by God itself, even though it severely lacks in ergonomics.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
    Yeah, I’ll also add is that while Gradle is technically a generic build tool, in practice the ecosystem realistically only makes sense to use for JVM code. All of the JS, Docker, Python, other plugins have significant issues due to only being supported/maintained by a few people. As well as Gradle giving a lot of JVM based caching for tasks set up as part of vanilla Gradle, that aren’t set up in these other ecosystems. I would argue Buildkit is also trying to be this kind of tool but is significantly less mature.
- SpaghettiCthulu 2y ago
  I strongly disagree. Gradle is extremely buggy where it matters the most. For instance, if I cancel a build part-way through and then run it again, gradle assumes that the in-progress JavaCompile task is completed, and proceeds to generate a Jar file containing resources but no classes. To fix this, I am forced to make useless changes, or clear my entire user-level gradle cache.
Tainnor 2y ago
One of the main reasons for me is that incremental compilation is essentially broken on maven, which may matter on large enough projects and if you keep waiting for CI builds. That, and the fact that anything slightly out of the ordinary that you'd want to do with maven requires a plugin - or, since most people won't bother, just extra scripts on top of maven, or no automation at all.
krzyk 2y ago
because it was new and shiny, people complained that maven doesnt allow arbitrary code to be executed in build, etc. And now they end up with what Ant was like.
- kaba0 2y ago
  If you think it’s like Ant, then you have absolutely zero understanding of gradle. Only the config step is “turing-complete”, which outputs a build graph that is cached and used to do every further step, finding the tasks that need recompilation, etc.
  - krzyk 2y ago
    "only the config step" - isn't that the only step users of gradle should be interested in? If config is a code, then it makes it more complicated in the long run (people are people and will add complexity to it) - there is a reason why they work on declarative syntax.