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Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want t

Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want to be able to point to such consequences as to why we shouldn't be dangerously cutting corners. And even if you only punish engineers it will decrease the pool of talent / cost effectiveness of workers available to the unscrupulous managers such that cutting corners could very well not be worth the cost. Money saved on cutting corners would be lost in trying to find competent engineers that were willing to cut those corners. Of course I want the entire chain of those involved criminally punished but punishing people anywhere on that chain, even those at the bottom is a start.

swozey 2y ago
You had the privilege of being able to quit the job over ethics / concerns. I'm assuming you didn't wind up homeless with starving children. I have definitely not always had that in my career and many people don't.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  I have ME/CFS which means for most of my life I've barely been able to make enough in the good times to cover the extended bad times. Running out of money for me is basically a death sentence as it would become increasingly impossible to dig my way out of such a hole. Normal people at their worst could probably stack shelves or wash dishes for a living but that option is not available to me. I'm better at managing my condition now but at the time I quit jobs for ethical reasons I did so knowing that if I didn't find something else quickly then I would eh. end up taking a long walk on a short pier. To make matters worse I'm highly noise intolerant and have to spend more money to live in quieter places otherwise my already precarious health would rapidly deteriorate. As engineers we are often responsible for the creation of assets more valuable than ourselves and I think it's an essential part of the job to put our lives on the line in much the same way an airplane passenger does. And as engineers we are often also airplane passengers ourselves and must trust that other engineers that they too have put our safety ahead of their personal wellbeing. As the middle class is crushed then sure, such ethical boundaries will fade out of necessity, and I see this as part of a descent into a low trust society and why I expect more planes to fall out of the sky, both metaphorically and literally. Once a culture tolerates such flexible ethics the boundaries will continue being pushed - there isn't a lower bound. This corruption inhibits the creation of valuable assets and will result in a massive erosion of our standard of living. An often touted solution is Universal basic income (UBI) that would create a safety-net for engineers and those with my type of disability - but having experienced constant gaslighting on ME/CFS from doctors informed by state funded research and given the expansion of Canadian MAID style solutions to people like myself I'm very fortunate that the capitalists opportunities existed such that I did not have to rely on state 'care'.
  - swozey 2y ago
    I was homeless at 17 in high school before going into the Marines in 2002. I know what having negative money is like, health problems or not. That doesn't change the fact that it comes from absolute privilege to tell someone that they should just quit their job because you don't agree with the ethics or morality of work they're doing. If you HAVE the privilege, the savings, the good health not needing COBRA, etc, then by all means walk away. You also don't mention having children, I know a LOT of parents and they absolutely don't have the money to be able to just walk away and keep their kids lifestyles, healthcare, etc until finding something new. But judging someone potentially desperate and on already on the edge for where they work in most cases is pretty off. You have your own story someone wouldn't be aware of without telling them that as you say may make it impossible to dig yourself out of a hole. Who knows what situation someones in?
    - cjbgkagh 2y ago
      I disagree again, and I would much rather be homeless than have ME/CFS, I'd still make that trade today. You clearly don't know what it means to have ME/CFS and I don't begrudge that, hardly anyone does. I would rather you be homeless than have you be part of making an airplane unsafe and I will judge you for that. I don't care how hard life is for you and I don't expect others to care how life has been for me - if you are part of making other people unnecessarily unsafe I hope you burn in hell for eternity. It's not a matter of privilege and just because you have found your way of being ok with it does not mean I still will not judge such decisions as unethical, immoral, improper and unbecoming of human in general and an engineer specifically.
      - swozey 2y ago
        What absolutely weird replies. You clearly are the victim of the world, sir. Nobody has worse problems than you! None of this was a competition, super strange to make it so and not just recognize not everyone can quit their job today, nod your head and agree. Because that is a fact.
        2y ago
WalterBright 2y ago
When you start criminally charging people for mistakes in critical systems, what you're going to get is coverups. With a no-fault system, mistakes are not covered up, but fixed. With a fault system: 1. if a mistake is discovered, it will not be fixed because that would be an admission of criminal liability. 2. Quality will not be improved, because that is (again) an implicit admission that the previous design was faulty. 3. You won't get new airplane designs, because (again) any new design is an inherent risk. I understand the desire for revenge, but there are heavy negative consequences for a revenge/punishment/fear based system. P.S. I worked at Boeing on the 757 stabilizer trim system. At one point, I knew everything there was to know about it. It was a safety critical system. I did a lot of the double checking of other peoples' work on it. I did not work in an atmosphere of fear. The 757 in service proved an extremely reliable airplane. I've flown commercial on many 757s, and often would chat a bit with the flight crew. They were unanimous in their admiration for the airplane. Made me feel pretty good.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  P.P.S. My work was checked by others, like the stress group, my lead engineer, and the test group.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  You're not the first person I've head of this idea from; it's from the NTSB charter The NTSB does not assign fault or blame for an accident or incident; rather, as specified by NTSB regulation, “accident/incident investigations are fact-finding proceedings with no formal issues and no adverse parties … and are not conducted for the purpose of determining the rights or liabilities of any person” But there was plenty of blaming / faulting going around outside of the NTSB. Hence the fraud we're currently talking about where Boeing tried to blame the pilots who rather conveniently for Boeing died and are no longer around to defend themselves. I'm glad you feel personally assured though your enthusiastic personal connections but that does not work for me. That it works for you actually makes me feel less safe flying.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
worik 2y ago
> Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm Yes But it will be much more effective if the managers risk jail Engineers often need the money and simply cannot quit like thar

swozey 2y ago

You had the privilege of being able to quit the job over ethics / concerns. I'm assuming you didn't wind up homeless with starving children. I have definitely not always had that in my career and many people don't.

cjbgkagh 2y ago
I have ME/CFS which means for most of my life I've barely been able to make enough in the good times to cover the extended bad times. Running out of money for me is basically a death sentence as it would become increasingly impossible to dig my way out of such a hole. Normal people at their worst could probably stack shelves or wash dishes for a living but that option is not available to me. I'm better at managing my condition now but at the time I quit jobs for ethical reasons I did so knowing that if I didn't find something else quickly then I would eh. end up taking a long walk on a short pier. To make matters worse I'm highly noise intolerant and have to spend more money to live in quieter places otherwise my already precarious health would rapidly deteriorate. As engineers we are often responsible for the creation of assets more valuable than ourselves and I think it's an essential part of the job to put our lives on the line in much the same way an airplane passenger does. And as engineers we are often also airplane passengers ourselves and must trust that other engineers that they too have put our safety ahead of their personal wellbeing. As the middle class is crushed then sure, such ethical boundaries will fade out of necessity, and I see this as part of a descent into a low trust society and why I expect more planes to fall out of the sky, both metaphorically and literally. Once a culture tolerates such flexible ethics the boundaries will continue being pushed - there isn't a lower bound. This corruption inhibits the creation of valuable assets and will result in a massive erosion of our standard of living. An often touted solution is Universal basic income (UBI) that would create a safety-net for engineers and those with my type of disability - but having experienced constant gaslighting on ME/CFS from doctors informed by state funded research and given the expansion of Canadian MAID style solutions to people like myself I'm very fortunate that the capitalists opportunities existed such that I did not have to rely on state 'care'.
- swozey 2y ago
  I was homeless at 17 in high school before going into the Marines in 2002. I know what having negative money is like, health problems or not. That doesn't change the fact that it comes from absolute privilege to tell someone that they should just quit their job because you don't agree with the ethics or morality of work they're doing. If you HAVE the privilege, the savings, the good health not needing COBRA, etc, then by all means walk away. You also don't mention having children, I know a LOT of parents and they absolutely don't have the money to be able to just walk away and keep their kids lifestyles, healthcare, etc until finding something new. But judging someone potentially desperate and on already on the edge for where they work in most cases is pretty off. You have your own story someone wouldn't be aware of without telling them that as you say may make it impossible to dig yourself out of a hole. Who knows what situation someones in?
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    I disagree again, and I would much rather be homeless than have ME/CFS, I'd still make that trade today. You clearly don't know what it means to have ME/CFS and I don't begrudge that, hardly anyone does. I would rather you be homeless than have you be part of making an airplane unsafe and I will judge you for that. I don't care how hard life is for you and I don't expect others to care how life has been for me - if you are part of making other people unnecessarily unsafe I hope you burn in hell for eternity. It's not a matter of privilege and just because you have found your way of being ok with it does not mean I still will not judge such decisions as unethical, immoral, improper and unbecoming of human in general and an engineer specifically.
    - swozey 2y ago
      What absolutely weird replies. You clearly are the victim of the world, sir. Nobody has worse problems than you! None of this was a competition, super strange to make it so and not just recognize not everyone can quit their job today, nod your head and agree. Because that is a fact.
      - 2y ago

WalterBright 2y ago

When you start criminally charging people for mistakes in critical systems, what you're going to get is coverups. With a no-fault system, mistakes are not covered up, but fixed. With a fault system: 1. if a mistake is discovered, it will not be fixed because that would be an admission of criminal liability. 2. Quality will not be improved, because that is (again) an implicit admission that the previous design was faulty. 3. You won't get new airplane designs, because (again) any new design is an inherent risk. I understand the desire for revenge, but there are heavy negative consequences for a revenge/punishment/fear based system. P.S. I worked at Boeing on the 757 stabilizer trim system. At one point, I knew everything there was to know about it. It was a safety critical system. I did a lot of the double checking of other peoples' work on it. I did not work in an atmosphere of fear. The 757 in service proved an extremely reliable airplane. I've flown commercial on many 757s, and often would chat a bit with the flight crew. They were unanimous in their admiration for the airplane. Made me feel pretty good.

WalterBright 2y ago
P.P.S. My work was checked by others, like the stress group, my lead engineer, and the test group.
cjbgkagh 2y ago
You're not the first person I've head of this idea from; it's from the NTSB charter The NTSB does not assign fault or blame for an accident or incident; rather, as specified by NTSB regulation, “accident/incident investigations are fact-finding proceedings with no formal issues and no adverse parties … and are not conducted for the purpose of determining the rights or liabilities of any person” But there was plenty of blaming / faulting going around outside of the NTSB. Hence the fraud we're currently talking about where Boeing tried to blame the pilots who rather conveniently for Boeing died and are no longer around to defend themselves. I'm glad you feel personally assured though your enthusiastic personal connections but that does not work for me. That it works for you actually makes me feel less safe flying.
- WalterBright 2y ago

worik 2y ago

> Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm Yes But it will be much more effective if the managers risk jail Engineers often need the money and simply cannot quit like thar