7 ms·

Can someone with knowledge of this space explain what it is about these star lawyers that makes them so valuable and worth these salaries? Like, versus another

Can someone with knowledge of this space explain what it is about these star lawyers that makes them so valuable and worth these salaries? Like, versus another qualified lawyer with equal access to boilerplates and command of the English language, what distinguishes them?

Rinzler89 2y ago
Brand image and advertising. If you're that lawyer who solved that one famous case you can charge to the moon for stuff any other law grad can handle because some well off customers will only want "the best" no matter how basic the task.
victorbjorklund 2y ago
If you are doing a deal of 1 billion dollar you might be willing to pay 20k extra just to get that 1% extra in skills. It's like what is the difference between your average doctor and the best doctors in their field. Or the average developer vs a very skilled one (why pay 500k for a top developer when you can get a cheap average one for 10% of the cost).
- jalapenos 2y ago
  Yes my question is what are those skills and what difference do they make specifically
  - Havoc 2y ago
    Better judgement, soft skills, intelligence, training, experience, network, connections etc. it’s neither one specific thing nor anything particular tangible thing you can point at. Bit like someone who is a good leader…very hard to pin down but a very real differentiator anyway
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    experience litigating these issues, often in the same courts, and at the same level -- big cases are a different game. being able to say with high confidence that "this contract works, and it's withstood scrutiny" and then be able to back that up with court cases showing how it works is a big deal. if you're signing million and multi-million dollar contracts, or looking at huge risks, tax liabilities, etc., then paying someone 900/hr to make sure you're not going to lose $55MM is nothing.
- defrost 2y ago
  s/skills/ personal contacts | experience / Law can be less about the raw skills and more about who X has partnered with, clerked for, vacationed with, etc. A good lawyer with the right position to achieve a desired result can sometimes cost as much as a top of the line RV bus and an all expenses paid for two private yacht cruise.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
lazide 2y ago
The issues these lawyers get pulled into don’t use boilerplate (at least not generic) anymore than you’d get random cut-n-paste from stackoverflow from a good software engineer. Additionally, a high end lawyer has made a name for themselves avoiding problems, and successfully navigating cases, in some very difficult corner of the field. That means they have their pick of junior associates and legal help, which also helps them be the best in the area, and a reputation which means opponents are much less likely to do stupid BS which wastes your time and money. The difference is easily 10x in likelihood you’ll prevail (or never need to litigate at all) vs a random other attorney. Just like your chances your end product will actually work is easily 10x if you hire a good software engineer vs a random ‘cut-n-paste from stack overflow with no clue what they’re doing’ software engineer.
- jalapenos 2y ago
  I call BS on that, no one ever made a name for themselves avoiding problems. The absence of a problem means what did you even do.
  - lazide 2y ago
    People come to lawyers with problems, and want those problems resolved. If the lawyers make even more problems on top of that, the clients tend to not like them very much. That does happen, but if a firm does that a lot, they get a pretty bad reputation.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    Avoiding problems as in resolving existing ones in a way without having to do as much as typically feared, not avoiding problems as in doing nothing useful. For the same problem a positive outcome without having to go to trial is worth more than a positive outcome that took 3 years to resolve. This is true both in how many billable hours you pay but also value to the person hiring the lawyer in general.
  - bookofjoe 2y ago
    David Boies/Lanny Davis/Roy Black-caliber boldface name lawyers can ask for — and get — million dollar retainers because of a long track record of making cases/serious charges go away, even if it takes years.
stockboss 2y ago
one possible explanation is that the truly top lawyers could be a lot more creative in their interpretation of the law, and are capable of convincing a judge or jury that his/her unconventional argument is right in the eyes of the law, so they can achieve their desired outcome even when the odds are against their favor. of course, the other factors that others have mentioned are probably also true regarding stuff like your network, your connections, etc.
bachmeier 2y ago
The article is primarily about Wall Street, but I can answer in the tax space. Law firms pay big money for lawyers with experience inside government tax offices. The ability to make a single call or knowing who to negotiate with can easily be worth seven figures to the client. Keep in mind that billable hours is what the law firm cares about. The good lawyer brings in more billable hours, even if the client isn't paying a premium on an hourly basis (which is also happening).
- jalapenos 2y ago
  So basically, they're better at graft?
  - bachmeier 2y ago
    To me, "graft" is too negative - there may be some of that, but inside knowledge and connections need not involve anything unethical or dishonest. When I hired a CPA to do my taxes, the reduction in tax liability exceeded the cost, just because they had knowledge of the tax system I didn't.
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    Better at saving money for their clients. If you pay someone $20,000 to legally reduce your tax liability by $100,000, it’s a win-win.
    - techdmn 2y ago
      Except taxes are the thing that funds civil society. Letting people work around that by paying $x results in a more regressive tax structure. Overall I would say there are many losers in the above scenario.
      - Dracophoenix 2y ago
        "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes." - Judge Learned Hand, Helvering v. Gregory
blitzar 2y ago
Good lawyers actually represent their clients, boilerplate lawyers spit out the boilerplate and are happy that it probably covers their client enough for them to defend their work to their professional body.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
The legal system is akin to an api with a codebase centuries long in many different languages. Good lawyers know which function calls are effective in this web of chaos.
- hodlngme 2y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
sadboi31 2y ago
Law firms are the right-arm of the shadow government. Non-profit super-pacs are probably the left arm. The legs would def be the internet. K&L Gates for example builds sophisticated social networks graphs of people in and outside of it's immediate community. Purchase as much data as you'd imagine an org like palantir would. They do their own "market research". Equal access to software based tools doesn't exist here or anywhere.
Ekaros 2y ago
Some people are just really good at negotiating things. You get paid well if you are superior in getting things out of the other side, be it for example insurance company. Those situations can net lot of money. And on other side, if you are effective in brining in, that is selling your firm, to less price sensitive customers that is also a huge thing.
Balgair 2y ago
I have family that are lawyers, some that are 'high up' in their respective areas. The answer is 'networking'. Very well paid lawyers are very good at being lawyers. Meaning that yes, they placed well in their law schools and that they really truly do know their stuff. In the US, common law systems are not an easy thing to master [0]. If they go to trial, they know how to run one and how not to run one, depending on circumstances. But the real thing that makes a very well paid lawyer as such is the 'networking' element. They know which judges will rule what way, what other lawyers in the local system are like, who the right secretaries to talk to are. And they know how to determine such things with little information. Most importantly, they know who not to talk to and get information from. And they know how to 'work the refs' to their advantage and how to ditch clients too. Is this scummy? Oh, absolutely, no questions. But the law in our system is not about the truth, it's about winning. That's why we pay lawyers to begin with: to win. If we want to change that, sure, fine, most lawyers do too. But you have to play the cards you're dealt. [0] Life tip: If you ever meet a Louisiana lawyer, you've met a very very smart person. Having to master two different law systems interacting at once is blindingly difficult. Louisiana's legal system is based on Napoleonic era civil law and the rest of the US's common law.

Rinzler89 2y ago

Brand image and advertising. If you're that lawyer who solved that one famous case you can charge to the moon for stuff any other law grad can handle because some well off customers will only want "the best" no matter how basic the task.

victorbjorklund 2y ago

If you are doing a deal of 1 billion dollar you might be willing to pay 20k extra just to get that 1% extra in skills. It's like what is the difference between your average doctor and the best doctors in their field. Or the average developer vs a very skilled one (why pay 500k for a top developer when you can get a cheap average one for 10% of the cost).

jalapenos 2y ago
Yes my question is what are those skills and what difference do they make specifically
- Havoc 2y ago
  Better judgement, soft skills, intelligence, training, experience, network, connections etc. it’s neither one specific thing nor anything particular tangible thing you can point at. Bit like someone who is a good leader…very hard to pin down but a very real differentiator anyway
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  experience litigating these issues, often in the same courts, and at the same level -- big cases are a different game. being able to say with high confidence that "this contract works, and it's withstood scrutiny" and then be able to back that up with court cases showing how it works is a big deal. if you're signing million and multi-million dollar contracts, or looking at huge risks, tax liabilities, etc., then paying someone 900/hr to make sure you're not going to lose $55MM is nothing.
defrost 2y ago
s/skills/ personal contacts | experience / Law can be less about the raw skills and more about who X has partnered with, clerked for, vacationed with, etc. A good lawyer with the right position to achieve a desired result can sometimes cost as much as a top of the line RV bus and an all expenses paid for two private yacht cruise.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

lazide 2y ago

The issues these lawyers get pulled into don’t use boilerplate (at least not generic) anymore than you’d get random cut-n-paste from stackoverflow from a good software engineer. Additionally, a high end lawyer has made a name for themselves avoiding problems, and successfully navigating cases, in some very difficult corner of the field. That means they have their pick of junior associates and legal help, which also helps them be the best in the area, and a reputation which means opponents are much less likely to do stupid BS which wastes your time and money. The difference is easily 10x in likelihood you’ll prevail (or never need to litigate at all) vs a random other attorney. Just like your chances your end product will actually work is easily 10x if you hire a good software engineer vs a random ‘cut-n-paste from stack overflow with no clue what they’re doing’ software engineer.

jalapenos 2y ago
I call BS on that, no one ever made a name for themselves avoiding problems. The absence of a problem means what did you even do.
- lazide 2y ago
  People come to lawyers with problems, and want those problems resolved. If the lawyers make even more problems on top of that, the clients tend to not like them very much. That does happen, but if a firm does that a lot, they get a pretty bad reputation.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Avoiding problems as in resolving existing ones in a way without having to do as much as typically feared, not avoiding problems as in doing nothing useful. For the same problem a positive outcome without having to go to trial is worth more than a positive outcome that took 3 years to resolve. This is true both in how many billable hours you pay but also value to the person hiring the lawyer in general.
- bookofjoe 2y ago
  David Boies/Lanny Davis/Roy Black-caliber boldface name lawyers can ask for — and get — million dollar retainers because of a long track record of making cases/serious charges go away, even if it takes years.

stockboss 2y ago

one possible explanation is that the truly top lawyers could be a lot more creative in their interpretation of the law, and are capable of convincing a judge or jury that his/her unconventional argument is right in the eyes of the law, so they can achieve their desired outcome even when the odds are against their favor. of course, the other factors that others have mentioned are probably also true regarding stuff like your network, your connections, etc.

bachmeier 2y ago

The article is primarily about Wall Street, but I can answer in the tax space. Law firms pay big money for lawyers with experience inside government tax offices. The ability to make a single call or knowing who to negotiate with can easily be worth seven figures to the client. Keep in mind that billable hours is what the law firm cares about. The good lawyer brings in more billable hours, even if the client isn't paying a premium on an hourly basis (which is also happening).

jalapenos 2y ago
So basically, they're better at graft?
- bachmeier 2y ago
  To me, "graft" is too negative - there may be some of that, but inside knowledge and connections need not involve anything unethical or dishonest. When I hired a CPA to do my taxes, the reduction in tax liability exceeded the cost, just because they had knowledge of the tax system I didn't.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago
  Better at saving money for their clients. If you pay someone $20,000 to legally reduce your tax liability by $100,000, it’s a win-win.
  - techdmn 2y ago
    Except taxes are the thing that funds civil society. Letting people work around that by paying $x results in a more regressive tax structure. Overall I would say there are many losers in the above scenario.
    - Dracophoenix 2y ago
      "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes." - Judge Learned Hand, Helvering v. Gregory

blitzar 2y ago

Good lawyers actually represent their clients, boilerplate lawyers spit out the boilerplate and are happy that it probably covers their client enough for them to defend their work to their professional body.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

The legal system is akin to an api with a codebase centuries long in many different languages. Good lawyers know which function calls are effective in this web of chaos.

hodlngme 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

sadboi31 2y ago

Law firms are the right-arm of the shadow government. Non-profit super-pacs are probably the left arm. The legs would def be the internet. K&L Gates for example builds sophisticated social networks graphs of people in and outside of it's immediate community. Purchase as much data as you'd imagine an org like palantir would. They do their own "market research". Equal access to software based tools doesn't exist here or anywhere.

Ekaros 2y ago

Some people are just really good at negotiating things. You get paid well if you are superior in getting things out of the other side, be it for example insurance company. Those situations can net lot of money. And on other side, if you are effective in brining in, that is selling your firm, to less price sensitive customers that is also a huge thing.

Balgair 2y ago

I have family that are lawyers, some that are 'high up' in their respective areas. The answer is 'networking'. Very well paid lawyers are very good at being lawyers. Meaning that yes, they placed well in their law schools and that they really truly do know their stuff. In the US, common law systems are not an easy thing to master [0]. If they go to trial, they know how to run one and how not to run one, depending on circumstances. But the real thing that makes a very well paid lawyer as such is the 'networking' element. They know which judges will rule what way, what other lawyers in the local system are like, who the right secretaries to talk to are. And they know how to determine such things with little information. Most importantly, they know who not to talk to and get information from. And they know how to 'work the refs' to their advantage and how to ditch clients too. Is this scummy? Oh, absolutely, no questions. But the law in our system is not about the truth, it's about winning. That's why we pay lawyers to begin with: to win. If we want to change that, sure, fine, most lawyers do too. But you have to play the cards you're dealt. [0] Life tip: If you ever meet a Louisiana lawyer, you've met a very very smart person. Having to master two different law systems interacting at once is blindingly difficult. Louisiana's legal system is based on Napoleonic era civil law and the rest of the US's common law.