5 ms·

End of the librarian? Council cuts and new tech push profession to the brink

39 points by beardyw 2y ago

NomDePlum 2y ago
All the hallmarks of a poorly thought out proposal. With the decision made purely on assumed cost savings, which the article gives several clear examples of those being highly unlikely to realised.
bell-cot 2y ago
> Officials in some local authorities are proposing that libraries can be operated at times without any professional librarians, relying on self-service technology, smartcards for entry and CCTV. Like Amazon's "Go" self-service stores, which are working out so well for them? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/amazon-ends-ai-powered-store-checkout-which-needed-1000-video-reviewers/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/amazon-ends-ai-power...
- chrisjj 2y ago
  > Officials in some local authorities are proposing that libraries can be operated at times without any professional librarians, relying on self-service technology, smartcards for entry and CCTV. But none of the jobs of self-service technology, smartcards for entry and CCTV are currently done by librarians.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
kkfx 2y ago
There are two kind of issues here: one is the preservation of human information fully knowing that sparse books are hard to change/destroy, while digital information on centralized sources is terribly easy to change, and we all know the power of information, so the interests of some to temper it for a large variety of reasons; the other one is the need of a sustainable economics. In certain period of prosperity even low output activities might be tenable, in a deep crisis they tend to be untenable.
Moldoteck 2y ago
Meanwhile Sweden and Finland are investing in their public libraries and these actually look cook
- pydry 2y ago
  The UK government prefers to capitalize the money that could have been spent on public services into ever higher house prices.
  - CuriouslyC 2y ago
    That's probably why they just had a landslide election to overturn the old order. Also, as an outsider, UK housing prices outside of London are actually quite affordable. With the current strength of the dollar a lot of very nice places in the UK are at price parity with Arkansas/Mississippi.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      If the Wikipedia lists are correct and up to date, Arkansas ($52,528) and Mississippi ($48,716) have significantly higher incomes than the UK ($40,800 PPP, but that's including London). I don't know what prices you see for houses in those states, but do also be aware that UK houses are generally on the small side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
      - CuriouslyC 2y ago
        I've seen renovated 9 bed 5 bath country estates from the 18th/19th century on 20 acres for the same price as 10 year old 6 bed 4 bath McMansions on 2-3 acres.
        ben_w 2y ago
        That sounds like 10-20 million in the UK; mostly listings stop at 5 bed. Nice if you can afford it, but most people can't.
safety1st 2y ago
In my youth I spent a lot of time in libraries and to my recollection, there were various staff roles. There's a lot of labor involved in running a library and most of it was done by clerks and pages. Actual librarians were somewhat scarce and they weren't just shelving books, a lot of their responsibilities were pretty high level, such as assisting patrons with research, designing the library's various educational programs, and curating collections of significant works. I can see how automation features like self checkout could replace some of the pages and clerks, but not the librarians. If for instance a journalist or historian (or anyone as it's a public service!) is doing research for their work, and needs to access the microfilms of old documents, the librarian is there to assist, and their function is invaluable - their existence is an investment by our society in increasing the accessibility and accuracy of facts. It seems like we need more people performing that function in the modern day, not less.
- chrisjj 2y ago
  The article is in error. The staff behind the counter are normally library assistants and very rarely librarians.
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    True. Though as a regular reader...well, more like skimmer, of The Guardian - that level of fluff is SOP for them. You can (at best) guess whether they're omitting important background and details from a story to simplify it, or to fit their desired editorial tone, or out of ignorance.
- yummypaint 2y ago
  Yes, even the "best" modern web search tools still don't come close to human curated subject headings. Library science survived the blockchain fads, hopefully it will remain resilient to the AI hucksters who already think google is just as good as an academic database, having never actually used one.
  - youerbt 2y ago
chrisjj 2y ago
> Library users with smartcards will be monitored by CCTV to ensure people do not “tailgate” into the buildings. Seriously? How do they think a camera can prevent tailgating?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
daveoc64 2y ago
My local library service in England has had the "Open Access" scheme in place since before the pandemic. I don't think there have been any major problems with it. You need to go through an induction course on things like fire safety, then you use your library card and PIN to enter the building out of staffed hours. It's very convenient to be able to go at any time from approx 08:00 to 19:30 every day. The "tailgating" problem is a little overblown - you're encouraged not to let others in, but they know that you can't do anything to stop it, and they don't expect you to put yourself in any danger. There are still staffed hours throughout the week, and these work on a sort of rotation so that a neighbouring library will likely be open if your local one is unstaffed. https://beta.southglos.gov.uk/open-access/ https://beta.southglos.gov.uk/open-access/
- lupusreal 2y ago
  When I was a kid, the public library in my small town in America was always unlocked during off hours. It was just assumed that nobody would abuse it.
radnh 2y ago
Total COVID-19 expenditures in the UK were £310 billion to £410 billion according to official figures. While BoJo was partying during lockdowns. The same BoJo was very enthusiastic about financing wars and torpedoing peace agreements. But financing open access libraries? Hell, no! People might start to think on their own.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Johnson resigned as PM after it was clear the party was going to change its own rules to make it possible to have another vote of no-confidence in him, then again as an MP after being told he was being investigated for misleading the Commons, and his party lost the election just a few days ago. Johnson not in charge of what these libraries are facing, the damage he caused is too distant — blame Sunak for not reversing those things if blame is more important to you than repairing the situation, but for the latter the ball is in Labour's court.
  - akslra 2y ago
    Same system, different actors. Johnson just exposed what was going on behind the scenes. Of course Sunak is similar in policies. So is Keir Starmer at least w.r.t. foreign policy. Maybe he'll fix the library situation for positive PR, it doesn't cost much.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Libraries aren't foreign policy. And Johnson didn't "just" expose what was going on behind the scenes, the point I was demonstrating is that he was so bad he was forced out of office even by the very party that itself was removed from office for being bad. If you want to argue that the UK electoral system is bad, I'd agree — yet your claim is neither evidence of that nor is it related to this story.
the_real_cher 2y ago
libraries need to be looked at from a human perspective because looked at from a business perspective libraries are purely cost centers.
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  Libraries are huge net wins for society. If they were just meeting spaces with free computer/internet access that'd be enough to justify their existence as a service to low income individuals and the community. They're so much more though - they're a nexus for events, classes and social activism while housing a useful cache of culture. Even if the internet has all the information and more, the library offers curation and an honest perspective which the internet sorely needs.
EDEdDNEdDYFaN 2y ago
Realistically how much money are they even saving trying to cut librarians? They couldn't trim the fat somewhere else in the budget? Seems like a waste of time and money to try and "automate" this when they can find the funding elsewhere
coastermug 2y ago
My local library inherited the staff from other libraries that closed well over ten years ago. This means they have a constant staff of circa 5 people, meanwhile they do no real outreach into the community nor are they friendly, and I am fairly certain they get fewer than 10 people through their doors each day. I believe that libraries are an essential public resource, but I don't think it’s productive to have resources that are essentially beyond scrutiny as that in turn leads to a very poor service.
- matwood 2y ago
  Libraries end up being fairly local, so local leadership matters. There are some amazing library systems in the US, and some that are terrible like you describe.
newsclues 2y ago
[dead]
Joeboy 2y ago
For a bit of context, "Nearly one in 10 English councils expect to go bust in next year"[0]. Which means they're forced to make brutal cuts across all services. It's not necessarily that they don't like librarians. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/28/nearly-one-in-10-english-councils-expect-to-go-bust-in-next-year-survey-finds https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/28/nearly-one-i...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

39 points by beardyw 2y ago

All the hallmarks of a poorly thought out proposal. With the decision made purely on assumed cost savings, which the article gives several clear examples of those being highly unlikely to realised.

bell-cot 2y ago

> Officials in some local authorities are proposing that libraries can be operated at times without any professional librarians, relying on self-service technology, smartcards for entry and CCTV. Like Amazon's "Go" self-service stores, which are working out so well for them? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/amazon-ends-ai-powered-store-checkout-which-needed-1000-video-reviewers/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/amazon-ends-ai-power...

chrisjj 2y ago
> Officials in some local authorities are proposing that libraries can be operated at times without any professional librarians, relying on self-service technology, smartcards for entry and CCTV. But none of the jobs of self-service technology, smartcards for entry and CCTV are currently done by librarians.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

kkfx 2y ago

There are two kind of issues here: one is the preservation of human information fully knowing that sparse books are hard to change/destroy, while digital information on centralized sources is terribly easy to change, and we all know the power of information, so the interests of some to temper it for a large variety of reasons; the other one is the need of a sustainable economics. In certain period of prosperity even low output activities might be tenable, in a deep crisis they tend to be untenable.

Moldoteck 2y ago

Meanwhile Sweden and Finland are investing in their public libraries and these actually look cook

pydry 2y ago
The UK government prefers to capitalize the money that could have been spent on public services into ever higher house prices.
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  That's probably why they just had a landslide election to overturn the old order. Also, as an outsider, UK housing prices outside of London are actually quite affordable. With the current strength of the dollar a lot of very nice places in the UK are at price parity with Arkansas/Mississippi.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    If the Wikipedia lists are correct and up to date, Arkansas ($52,528) and Mississippi ($48,716) have significantly higher incomes than the UK ($40,800 PPP, but that's including London). I don't know what prices you see for houses in those states, but do also be aware that UK houses are generally on the small side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
    - CuriouslyC 2y ago
      I've seen renovated 9 bed 5 bath country estates from the 18th/19th century on 20 acres for the same price as 10 year old 6 bed 4 bath McMansions on 2-3 acres.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        That sounds like 10-20 million in the UK; mostly listings stop at 5 bed. Nice if you can afford it, but most people can't.

safety1st 2y ago

In my youth I spent a lot of time in libraries and to my recollection, there were various staff roles. There's a lot of labor involved in running a library and most of it was done by clerks and pages. Actual librarians were somewhat scarce and they weren't just shelving books, a lot of their responsibilities were pretty high level, such as assisting patrons with research, designing the library's various educational programs, and curating collections of significant works. I can see how automation features like self checkout could replace some of the pages and clerks, but not the librarians. If for instance a journalist or historian (or anyone as it's a public service!) is doing research for their work, and needs to access the microfilms of old documents, the librarian is there to assist, and their function is invaluable - their existence is an investment by our society in increasing the accessibility and accuracy of facts. It seems like we need more people performing that function in the modern day, not less.

chrisjj 2y ago
The article is in error. The staff behind the counter are normally library assistants and very rarely librarians.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  True. Though as a regular reader...well, more like skimmer, of The Guardian - that level of fluff is SOP for them. You can (at best) guess whether they're omitting important background and details from a story to simplify it, or to fit their desired editorial tone, or out of ignorance.
yummypaint 2y ago
Yes, even the "best" modern web search tools still don't come close to human curated subject headings. Library science survived the blockchain fads, hopefully it will remain resilient to the AI hucksters who already think google is just as good as an academic database, having never actually used one.
- youerbt 2y ago

chrisjj 2y ago

> Library users with smartcards will be monitored by CCTV to ensure people do not “tailgate” into the buildings. Seriously? How do they think a camera can prevent tailgating?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

daveoc64 2y ago

My local library service in England has had the "Open Access" scheme in place since before the pandemic. I don't think there have been any major problems with it. You need to go through an induction course on things like fire safety, then you use your library card and PIN to enter the building out of staffed hours. It's very convenient to be able to go at any time from approx 08:00 to 19:30 every day. The "tailgating" problem is a little overblown - you're encouraged not to let others in, but they know that you can't do anything to stop it, and they don't expect you to put yourself in any danger. There are still staffed hours throughout the week, and these work on a sort of rotation so that a neighbouring library will likely be open if your local one is unstaffed. https://beta.southglos.gov.uk/open-access/ https://beta.southglos.gov.uk/open-access/

lupusreal 2y ago
When I was a kid, the public library in my small town in America was always unlocked during off hours. It was just assumed that nobody would abuse it.

radnh 2y ago

Total COVID-19 expenditures in the UK were £310 billion to £410 billion according to official figures. While BoJo was partying during lockdowns. The same BoJo was very enthusiastic about financing wars and torpedoing peace agreements. But financing open access libraries? Hell, no! People might start to think on their own.

ben_w 2y ago
Johnson resigned as PM after it was clear the party was going to change its own rules to make it possible to have another vote of no-confidence in him, then again as an MP after being told he was being investigated for misleading the Commons, and his party lost the election just a few days ago. Johnson not in charge of what these libraries are facing, the damage he caused is too distant — blame Sunak for not reversing those things if blame is more important to you than repairing the situation, but for the latter the ball is in Labour's court.
- akslra 2y ago
  Same system, different actors. Johnson just exposed what was going on behind the scenes. Of course Sunak is similar in policies. So is Keir Starmer at least w.r.t. foreign policy. Maybe he'll fix the library situation for positive PR, it doesn't cost much.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Libraries aren't foreign policy. And Johnson didn't "just" expose what was going on behind the scenes, the point I was demonstrating is that he was so bad he was forced out of office even by the very party that itself was removed from office for being bad. If you want to argue that the UK electoral system is bad, I'd agree — yet your claim is neither evidence of that nor is it related to this story.

the_real_cher 2y ago

libraries need to be looked at from a human perspective because looked at from a business perspective libraries are purely cost centers.

CuriouslyC 2y ago
Libraries are huge net wins for society. If they were just meeting spaces with free computer/internet access that'd be enough to justify their existence as a service to low income individuals and the community. They're so much more though - they're a nexus for events, classes and social activism while housing a useful cache of culture. Even if the internet has all the information and more, the library offers curation and an honest perspective which the internet sorely needs.

EDEdDNEdDYFaN 2y ago

Realistically how much money are they even saving trying to cut librarians? They couldn't trim the fat somewhere else in the budget? Seems like a waste of time and money to try and "automate" this when they can find the funding elsewhere

coastermug 2y ago

My local library inherited the staff from other libraries that closed well over ten years ago. This means they have a constant staff of circa 5 people, meanwhile they do no real outreach into the community nor are they friendly, and I am fairly certain they get fewer than 10 people through their doors each day. I believe that libraries are an essential public resource, but I don't think it’s productive to have resources that are essentially beyond scrutiny as that in turn leads to a very poor service.

matwood 2y ago
Libraries end up being fairly local, so local leadership matters. There are some amazing library systems in the US, and some that are terrible like you describe.

newsclues 2y ago

[dead]

Joeboy 2y ago

For a bit of context, "Nearly one in 10 English councils expect to go bust in next year"[0]. Which means they're forced to make brutal cuts across all services. It's not necessarily that they don't like librarians. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/28/nearly-one-in-10-english-councils-expect-to-go-bust-in-next-year-survey-finds https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/28/nearly-one-i...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]