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Reading between the lines slightly, it sounds like this affects TVs running Roku software for inbuilt "smarts" rather than the media players themselves. Still n

Reading between the lines slightly, it sounds like this affects TVs running Roku software for inbuilt "smarts" rather than the media players themselves. Still not great, of course.

ethbr1 2y ago
Anyone who allows their TV to connect to the internet deserves what they get.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  There's nothing inherently wrong with built-in Netflix etc.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    There is, if you desire control of your television. If you have no problem with Roku et al. pushing updates to your TV, then by all means use integrated software.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      A separate streaming device, or a computer, has the same issues. Unless a TV screen is special here it sounds like this logic won't let me use any streaming services.
      - Larrikin 2y ago
        A streaming box can be factory reset or thrown in the trash. If your 65 inch TV doesn't let you roll back an update you have to buy a new TV. Streaming boxes are usually faster and more feature filled than the in built TV stuff as well.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        And now we're getting into much more technical details and why I said "inherently". A proper built-in box will let you bypass it.
        karmakaze 2y ago
        That's exactly the problem. There's no guarantee that the built-in will be and remain "proper" with updates. It's like saying we can trust our government with encryption backdoors as long as they behave properly.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        My perspective: the incentive for manufacturers is to generate as much revenue as possible. In hardware manufacturing, margins are extremely tight. Consequently, any additional revenue from selling customer data is incredibly attractive. Especially if you can do so better/faster than your competitors, thereby competing at the same retail price points with better net margins. As a result... they have every incentive to fuck their customers over from a privacy perspective. And what they're doing is invisible. And this is an entity people are comfortable trusting with unfettered access to their devices/network?
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        Sorry, I was unclear. By 'bypass', I mean something that does not require the cooperation of the box. I should have said the proper way of adding it will let you bypass the box, not phrase things as if the box is the gatekeeper.
        cassianoleal 2y ago
        Without connecting my TV to the Internet for firmware upgrades, I would be missing out on several fixes and improvements especially with handling of higher frame rates, VRR and IIRC at least one in the HDMI ARC subsystem that was causing audio drops.
        2y ago
      - gspencley 2y ago
        I'm not saying that other people should go the route that I did, I'm just adding to the conversation. I wanted to make my "smart" tv "dumb" without losing smart tv functionality, so I bought a mini pc and installed Kubuntu on it. Normally I don't use KDE but it is a very highly customizable DE and so I customized the hell out of it to make the desktop look like a typical smart tv launcher page. I created launchers for streaming services and YouTube etc. and bought a USB remote control from Amazon. Now I have a Linux machine that is entirely under my control, runs FOSS software and runs streaming services in a web browser instead of installing proprietary software on my TV. I also have way more features, like being able to use VLC to play local media so it supports pretty much every file format ever (and I have a lot of older video files from decades ago so that's nice). My "smart" tv is no longer connected to any network but I can still do every smart tv thing that I want to and more.
        0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
        Unless things have changed, a Linux machine will not give you a high bit rate picture. Netflix requires DRM and will only give you 720p. So you get freedom, but a worse product. Which is a trade off not all would be willing to make.
        dmkolobov 2y ago
        There are also few major streaming services which require elevated levels of DRM , preventing them from being used on Linux.
        gspencley 2y ago
        I've not had any issues with any streaming service not working on Linux. Disney+, Netflix, Prime Video, Shutter all work fine for me. If it can be streamed in a browser, on any OS, it works on Linux. Typically your browser just needs to have Widevine installed. As for Netflix quality, I've not noticed any quality issues at 1080p but I've not measured the stream to confirm if that's what they're actually streaming.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      I'd rather my tv get updates than have it end up as part of a botnet. The recent RCE in ssh shows nothing is immune.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        > The recent RCE in ssh shows nothing is immune. An unplugged network cable.
      - spectre3d 2y ago
        For myself, I’ve never had a reason to put it online. If you’re using the TV online, then yes, get updates, but if you never let it have network access then this isn’t a deep concern.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Having an internet-connected TV running Android is great. With this, I can download and install SmartTube, and then use it to watch YouTube without ads or sponsor segments. I can also install Jellyfin, so I can watch various media served by my PC.
    - DidYaWipe 2y ago
      You're better off using an Nvidia Shield for that. You can swap that or the TV out independently as tech changes. You can also plug drives into it and play whatever media you want.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        Except that my TV already has a computer running Android inside, so why would I want to spend a bunch more money on an additional device that just does the same thing? If I could have saved a little money by getting a 65" monitor, this advice would make a lot of sense. But that's just not an option these days. You're getting a built-in computer whether you want it or not. As for plugging in drives, it looks like you can only do that with either microSD or USB. Either way, doing that for every item I want to watch is very inconvenient compared to just using Jellyfin, which lets me browse everything on my PC.
        DidYaWipe 2y ago
        Not at all. I have an SSD plugged into my Shield, to which I can copy whatever I want over my network. People also like to install torrent-based clients for illicit streaming services, although I don't consider that worthwhile. Your observation about every TV forcing built-in junk on you is legit; but I use a projector, which doesn't have any of that bullshit. Every source I have goes through my receiver, which is another reason to use a media player that's not your TV. The whole thing is a sad commentary on the state of A/V and people's laziness today. They're buying giant TVs but settling for the shitty audio from its built-in speakers... or fooling themselves with a sound bar.
        2y ago
  - lazide 2y ago
    There is also nothing inherently wrong with connecting random Windows machines directly to the Internet. It’s still not going to work out in a good way over any significant timeframe.
- Carrok 2y ago
  I said the same thing, until I wanted to connect to my private Jellyfin server.
  - hagbard_c 2y ago
    Make a specific network for these applications which does not have access to the internet. Add your personal media servers to it and give the TV and other untrustworthy devices access to it. You get to access your media without having the devices spy on you and without having them auto-update. You can have several such networks for different purposes, e.g. 'internet of things' and 'media' and 'systems management' to name a few. All this takes is a reasonably capable router - OpenWRT in my case, running in a container on the server-under-the-stairs - and (if you use separate access points which is a must when using a virtual router...) a managed switch which can handle VLANs. For access points I use repurposed WiFi routers running OpenWRT with their routing functionality disabled. I went this route because I live on a farm with several access points spread out over the premises but the same can be achieved with a single WiFi router running OpenWRT or similar, in that case just add a number of interfaces and wireless networks ('media', 'iot', 'ops' etc.) to which you connect our devices.
- tamimio 2y ago
  I connected my TV to the internet to test some Wi-Fi streaming before, and I noticed after a few days the number of blocked queries my DNS had blocked. So, I kept it running for a few days. On average, it blocked more than 15k queries a day! And that’s in idle mode and/or turned off, so I wasn’t running any YouTube, Netflix, or similar.
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    If you're just looking at number of requests blocked, that can be highly deceiving. A lot of these "smart" TV OSs (and other embedded devices) will very rapidly spam the DNS server with no backoff when they don't get the expected response.
  - VTimofeenko 2y ago
    Some of these tvs also hardcode DNS IPs. If your router supports it -- check the outgoing traffic from the tv to the standard DNS ports.
- DakotaR 2y ago
  I loathe ads on my Roku TV, but free news channels and Jellyfin make it worthwhile in my case.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  This is the way. If you went into a data center with a random device from amazon and asked to plug it in and see what happens an sysadmin would slap you silly. At home folks are content to plug in whatever. Not only do you have no idea what it's doing but what it MIGHT do in the future. https://www.theverge.com/23573362/anker-eufy-security-camera-answers-encryption https://www.theverge.com/23573362/anker-eufy-security-camera... ... Anker was a pretty respectable brand, their marketing department out right lied, about a device where privacy is critical. Control your network, trust nothing you plug into it... It won't stop, so cut it off is the order of the day.
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  I agree that using the default OS on a smart TV is riddling oneself with ads and tracking. But it is not common wisdom, and saying everyone deserves it is unproductive and lacks empathy. I deserved it when I started getting ads on Twitch after re-enabling updates for it for no particular reason, because I know better. My dad who wants to use Criterion on his smart TV but can't figure out how to use a smartphone camera? Different story.

Reading between the lines slightly, it sounds like this affects TVs running Roku software for inbuilt "smarts" rather than the media players themselves. Still not great, of course.

ethbr1 2y ago

Anyone who allows their TV to connect to the internet deserves what they get.

Dylan16807 2y ago
There's nothing inherently wrong with built-in Netflix etc.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  There is, if you desire control of your television. If you have no problem with Roku et al. pushing updates to your TV, then by all means use integrated software.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    A separate streaming device, or a computer, has the same issues. Unless a TV screen is special here it sounds like this logic won't let me use any streaming services.
    - Larrikin 2y ago
      A streaming box can be factory reset or thrown in the trash. If your 65 inch TV doesn't let you roll back an update you have to buy a new TV. Streaming boxes are usually faster and more feature filled than the in built TV stuff as well.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        And now we're getting into much more technical details and why I said "inherently". A proper built-in box will let you bypass it.
        karmakaze 2y ago
        That's exactly the problem. There's no guarantee that the built-in will be and remain "proper" with updates. It's like saying we can trust our government with encryption backdoors as long as they behave properly.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        My perspective: the incentive for manufacturers is to generate as much revenue as possible. In hardware manufacturing, margins are extremely tight. Consequently, any additional revenue from selling customer data is incredibly attractive. Especially if you can do so better/faster than your competitors, thereby competing at the same retail price points with better net margins. As a result... they have every incentive to fuck their customers over from a privacy perspective. And what they're doing is invisible. And this is an entity people are comfortable trusting with unfettered access to their devices/network?
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        Sorry, I was unclear. By 'bypass', I mean something that does not require the cooperation of the box. I should have said the proper way of adding it will let you bypass the box, not phrase things as if the box is the gatekeeper.
      - cassianoleal 2y ago
        Without connecting my TV to the Internet for firmware upgrades, I would be missing out on several fixes and improvements especially with handling of higher frame rates, VRR and IIRC at least one in the HDMI ARC subsystem that was causing audio drops.
        2y ago
    - gspencley 2y ago
      I'm not saying that other people should go the route that I did, I'm just adding to the conversation. I wanted to make my "smart" tv "dumb" without losing smart tv functionality, so I bought a mini pc and installed Kubuntu on it. Normally I don't use KDE but it is a very highly customizable DE and so I customized the hell out of it to make the desktop look like a typical smart tv launcher page. I created launchers for streaming services and YouTube etc. and bought a USB remote control from Amazon. Now I have a Linux machine that is entirely under my control, runs FOSS software and runs streaming services in a web browser instead of installing proprietary software on my TV. I also have way more features, like being able to use VLC to play local media so it supports pretty much every file format ever (and I have a lot of older video files from decades ago so that's nice). My "smart" tv is no longer connected to any network but I can still do every smart tv thing that I want to and more.
      - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
        Unless things have changed, a Linux machine will not give you a high bit rate picture. Netflix requires DRM and will only give you 720p. So you get freedom, but a worse product. Which is a trade off not all would be willing to make.
        dmkolobov 2y ago
        There are also few major streaming services which require elevated levels of DRM , preventing them from being used on Linux.
        gspencley 2y ago
        I've not had any issues with any streaming service not working on Linux. Disney+, Netflix, Prime Video, Shutter all work fine for me. If it can be streamed in a browser, on any OS, it works on Linux. Typically your browser just needs to have Widevine installed. As for Netflix quality, I've not noticed any quality issues at 1080p but I've not measured the stream to confirm if that's what they're actually streaming.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I'd rather my tv get updates than have it end up as part of a botnet. The recent RCE in ssh shows nothing is immune.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      > The recent RCE in ssh shows nothing is immune. An unplugged network cable.
    - spectre3d 2y ago
      For myself, I’ve never had a reason to put it online. If you’re using the TV online, then yes, get updates, but if you never let it have network access then this isn’t a deep concern.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Having an internet-connected TV running Android is great. With this, I can download and install SmartTube, and then use it to watch YouTube without ads or sponsor segments. I can also install Jellyfin, so I can watch various media served by my PC.
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    You're better off using an Nvidia Shield for that. You can swap that or the TV out independently as tech changes. You can also plug drives into it and play whatever media you want.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Except that my TV already has a computer running Android inside, so why would I want to spend a bunch more money on an additional device that just does the same thing? If I could have saved a little money by getting a 65" monitor, this advice would make a lot of sense. But that's just not an option these days. You're getting a built-in computer whether you want it or not. As for plugging in drives, it looks like you can only do that with either microSD or USB. Either way, doing that for every item I want to watch is very inconvenient compared to just using Jellyfin, which lets me browse everything on my PC.
      - DidYaWipe 2y ago
        Not at all. I have an SSD plugged into my Shield, to which I can copy whatever I want over my network. People also like to install torrent-based clients for illicit streaming services, although I don't consider that worthwhile. Your observation about every TV forcing built-in junk on you is legit; but I use a projector, which doesn't have any of that bullshit. Every source I have goes through my receiver, which is another reason to use a media player that's not your TV. The whole thing is a sad commentary on the state of A/V and people's laziness today. They're buying giant TVs but settling for the shitty audio from its built-in speakers... or fooling themselves with a sound bar.
        2y ago
- lazide 2y ago
  There is also nothing inherently wrong with connecting random Windows machines directly to the Internet. It’s still not going to work out in a good way over any significant timeframe.
Carrok 2y ago
I said the same thing, until I wanted to connect to my private Jellyfin server.
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  Make a specific network for these applications which does not have access to the internet. Add your personal media servers to it and give the TV and other untrustworthy devices access to it. You get to access your media without having the devices spy on you and without having them auto-update. You can have several such networks for different purposes, e.g. 'internet of things' and 'media' and 'systems management' to name a few. All this takes is a reasonably capable router - OpenWRT in my case, running in a container on the server-under-the-stairs - and (if you use separate access points which is a must when using a virtual router...) a managed switch which can handle VLANs. For access points I use repurposed WiFi routers running OpenWRT with their routing functionality disabled. I went this route because I live on a farm with several access points spread out over the premises but the same can be achieved with a single WiFi router running OpenWRT or similar, in that case just add a number of interfaces and wireless networks ('media', 'iot', 'ops' etc.) to which you connect our devices.
tamimio 2y ago
I connected my TV to the internet to test some Wi-Fi streaming before, and I noticed after a few days the number of blocked queries my DNS had blocked. So, I kept it running for a few days. On average, it blocked more than 15k queries a day! And that’s in idle mode and/or turned off, so I wasn’t running any YouTube, Netflix, or similar.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  If you're just looking at number of requests blocked, that can be highly deceiving. A lot of these "smart" TV OSs (and other embedded devices) will very rapidly spam the DNS server with no backoff when they don't get the expected response.
- VTimofeenko 2y ago
  Some of these tvs also hardcode DNS IPs. If your router supports it -- check the outgoing traffic from the tv to the standard DNS ports.
DakotaR 2y ago
I loathe ads on my Roku TV, but free news channels and Jellyfin make it worthwhile in my case.
zer00eyz 2y ago
This is the way. If you went into a data center with a random device from amazon and asked to plug it in and see what happens an sysadmin would slap you silly. At home folks are content to plug in whatever. Not only do you have no idea what it's doing but what it MIGHT do in the future. https://www.theverge.com/23573362/anker-eufy-security-camera-answers-encryption https://www.theverge.com/23573362/anker-eufy-security-camera... ... Anker was a pretty respectable brand, their marketing department out right lied, about a device where privacy is critical. Control your network, trust nothing you plug into it... It won't stop, so cut it off is the order of the day.
unethical_ban 2y ago
I agree that using the default OS on a smart TV is riddling oneself with ads and tracking. But it is not common wisdom, and saying everyone deserves it is unproductive and lacks empathy. I deserved it when I started getting ads on Twitch after re-enabling updates for it for no particular reason, because I know better. My dad who wants to use Criterion on his smart TV but can't figure out how to use a smartphone camera? Different story.