3 ms·

Only holds if whatever hardware that’s pretending to be the matter can act exactly like the matter without being the same thing. For the distinction, consider

Only holds if whatever hardware that’s pretending to be the matter can act exactly like the matter without being the same thing. For the distinction, consider the difference between a simulation of a simple chemical process in a computer—even a perfectly accurate one!—and the actual thing happening. Is the thing going on in the computer the same? No, no matter how perfect the simulation. It’s a little electricity moving around, looking nothing whatsoever like the real thing. The simulation is meaning that we impose on that electricity moving around. That being the case, this reduces to “if we recreate the matter and state exactly, for-real, is that consciousness?” in which case yeah, sure, probably so. This doesn’t work if the thing running the simulation requires interpretation.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
exactly, The parent post does not address the issue of representation vs reality. You can simulate every molecular interaction in a fire, but that does not mean the simulation gives off the same heat. You can write a perfectly accurate equation for splitting an atom, but the equation does not release energy.
- codeflo 2y ago
  > You can simulate every molecular interaction in a fire, but that does not mean the simulation gives off the same heat It would to a simulated being standing next to the fire. > You can write a perfectly accurate equation for splitting an atom, but the equation does not release energy. It releases simulated energy inside the simulation. Every material interaction is simulated. If you believe that consciousness can't exist in the simulation, then you believe that consciousness is not a material interaction, q.e.d.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    It’s some electrons moving around. Any further meaning of that is only what we assign to it. Unless your “computer” is identical matter in the same arrangement and state is the original, actually doing stuff. This is why the “what if you slowly simulated the entire universe on an infinite beach moving rocks around to represent the state? Could anything in it be conscious?” thing isn’t my very interesting. No, you’re just shoving rocks around on sand. They don’t mean anything except what you decide they do. Easy answer.
    - MrScruff 2y ago
      Doesn't materialism imply that a perfectly accurate simulation of the universe would be identical to the universe we live in? If not, in what possible way could the two be distinguished?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    >Every material interaction is simulated. If you believe that consciousness can't exist in the simulation, then you believe that consciousness is not a material interaction I think that is missing the point. You are literally changing the material and medium by conducting a simulation. Releasing simulated energy within a simulation is not identical to releasing real energy in the real world. The former is purely representational, and even a perfectly simulated object retains this property, and lack of equivalence. a simulated atom is not a real atom, no mater their similarlity.
- hackinthebochs 2y ago
  When we refer to heat we refer to the increase in entropy that has specific effects to things in our world. We can also describe a generic "disordered" state, which doesn't imply a similar kind of causal compatibility. A simulation of entropy is equally disordered with no caveats despite not being exactly entropy due to the causal compatibility issue. Why think consciousness is like entropy rather than like disorder? In other words, why think consciousness is a physical property of some specific kind of matter rather than an abstract property that can supervene on any sufficiently robust physical substrate?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    >why think consciousness is a physical property of some specific kind of matter rather than an abstract property that can supervene on any sufficiently robust physical substrate? Im open to the idea that consciousness could arise on different substrates, but hold that the substrate is relevant, and we dont have a working definition of "robustness". This is part of a bigger challenge in which I claim there is no such thing as a perfect simulation. Simulation requires representation, which requires requires remaining differences unrepresented. Otherwise you just have just created the same thing, not a simulation. You can simulate the interaction of physical object with other physical objects using electronic object interacting with other electronic objects, but the two are not the same. The electronic object still can not interact with a physical object.
    - hackinthebochs 2y ago
      >Simulation requires representation, which requires requires remaining differences unrepresented Right. But presumably not all physical properties of brains are necessary for consciousness. For example, the fact that action potentials happen on the order of 1ms to 1 second probably isn't intrinsic to consciousness. That is, there is no in principle problem with having consciousness supervene on neural networks that have much longer cycles for the basic substrate of communication. It also probably doesn't matter that neurons communicate through opening and closing ion channels, are made of carbon atoms, are constructed by protein assemblies produced from DNA, etc. What we need is to represent every necessary feature and relationship involved in manifesting consciousness. As a first pass estimation, it seems very likely that only the information-bearing structures are necessary for consciousness. But the information-bearing structures are substrate independent. It follows that a perfect simulation of these information-bearing structures engaged in their typical dynamics would be conscious. >You can simulate the interaction [...] but the two are not the same. This idea that something needs to be "the same" is doing a lot of work in your argument. But most relationships involved in brains are incidental to consciousness. We need to get clear on what the necessary features of consciousness are. This is the only measure of sameness that matters, not superficial resemblance.
amelius 2y ago
Ok, next experiment. Imagine you took a brain and replaced one neuron by a transistor (or gate) that performs the exact same function as the neuron. Now replace more and more neurons until all neurons are now transistors. Would the resulting being be conscious and experience qualia, like the original did? If not, at what point was there a notable change? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
- vundercind 2y ago
  The same function, down to quantum and gravity et c effects on everything around it, and accepting and reacting to same? Yeah probably, but we’re back to having to “run” this on the same arrangement of actual matter as the original. [edit] there’s an obvious attack on this, but I’ll go ahead and note my position on it: the whole premise that we can do any of this without just using actual matter the ordinary way is so far into magical territory that we might as well ask “what if lephuchans simulated it?” or “what if god imagined the simulation?”—well ok, sure, I guess if magic is involved that could work, but what’s the point of even considering it? “What if a miracle occurred?” isn’t a rebuttal to the position that consciousness as we know it likely can’t be simulated by simulating physics, because you can rebut anything with it. Its admission to a discussion is the same as giving up on figuring out anything.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    > there’s an obvious attack on this, but I’ll go ahead and note my position on it: the whole premise that we can do any of this without just using actual matter the ordinary way is so far into magical territory that we might as well ask “what if lephuchans simulated it?” or “what if god imagined the simulation?”—well ok, sure, I guess if magic is involved that could work, but what’s the point of even considering it? That's one of the main points of using a thought experiment: by declaring axioms explicitly, by fiat ("true" by definition), it prevents the mind from taking advantage of thought terminating get out of jail free cards like this, it forces people to argue their point.
- strogonoff 2y ago
swid 2y ago
Are you questioning if physics is computable? Even if it is not fully, we must be able to approximate it quite well. Suppose we scan more than just the person, but a local environment around them and simulated the whole box. The update that occurs as the person sits in the room involves them considering their own existence. Maybe they create art about it. If the simulation is to produce accurate results, they will need to feel alive to themselves. We agree we can simulate an explosion and get accurate results; if we can’t get an accurate simulation of a person, why?
hackinthebochs 2y ago
>It’s a little electricity moving around, looking nothing whatsoever like the real thing. Why does "looking ... like the real thing" have any relevance for consciousness? What property of a conscious substance is captured by this "looking like" criteria? Is consciousness (partially) a feature of the substrate itself or how the substrate moves through some background consciousness aether, or something else? If you can't articulate what this special criteria is, then why think a simulation isn't conscious, which by assumption reproduces all information dynamics of the physical phenomena?

s1artibartfast 2y ago

exactly, The parent post does not address the issue of representation vs reality. You can simulate every molecular interaction in a fire, but that does not mean the simulation gives off the same heat. You can write a perfectly accurate equation for splitting an atom, but the equation does not release energy.

codeflo 2y ago
> You can simulate every molecular interaction in a fire, but that does not mean the simulation gives off the same heat It would to a simulated being standing next to the fire. > You can write a perfectly accurate equation for splitting an atom, but the equation does not release energy. It releases simulated energy inside the simulation. Every material interaction is simulated. If you believe that consciousness can't exist in the simulation, then you believe that consciousness is not a material interaction, q.e.d.
- vundercind 2y ago
  It’s some electrons moving around. Any further meaning of that is only what we assign to it. Unless your “computer” is identical matter in the same arrangement and state is the original, actually doing stuff. This is why the “what if you slowly simulated the entire universe on an infinite beach moving rocks around to represent the state? Could anything in it be conscious?” thing isn’t my very interesting. No, you’re just shoving rocks around on sand. They don’t mean anything except what you decide they do. Easy answer.
  - MrScruff 2y ago
    Doesn't materialism imply that a perfectly accurate simulation of the universe would be identical to the universe we live in? If not, in what possible way could the two be distinguished?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >Every material interaction is simulated. If you believe that consciousness can't exist in the simulation, then you believe that consciousness is not a material interaction I think that is missing the point. You are literally changing the material and medium by conducting a simulation. Releasing simulated energy within a simulation is not identical to releasing real energy in the real world. The former is purely representational, and even a perfectly simulated object retains this property, and lack of equivalence. a simulated atom is not a real atom, no mater their similarlity.
hackinthebochs 2y ago
When we refer to heat we refer to the increase in entropy that has specific effects to things in our world. We can also describe a generic "disordered" state, which doesn't imply a similar kind of causal compatibility. A simulation of entropy is equally disordered with no caveats despite not being exactly entropy due to the causal compatibility issue. Why think consciousness is like entropy rather than like disorder? In other words, why think consciousness is a physical property of some specific kind of matter rather than an abstract property that can supervene on any sufficiently robust physical substrate?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >why think consciousness is a physical property of some specific kind of matter rather than an abstract property that can supervene on any sufficiently robust physical substrate? Im open to the idea that consciousness could arise on different substrates, but hold that the substrate is relevant, and we dont have a working definition of "robustness". This is part of a bigger challenge in which I claim there is no such thing as a perfect simulation. Simulation requires representation, which requires requires remaining differences unrepresented. Otherwise you just have just created the same thing, not a simulation. You can simulate the interaction of physical object with other physical objects using electronic object interacting with other electronic objects, but the two are not the same. The electronic object still can not interact with a physical object.
  - hackinthebochs 2y ago
    >Simulation requires representation, which requires requires remaining differences unrepresented Right. But presumably not all physical properties of brains are necessary for consciousness. For example, the fact that action potentials happen on the order of 1ms to 1 second probably isn't intrinsic to consciousness. That is, there is no in principle problem with having consciousness supervene on neural networks that have much longer cycles for the basic substrate of communication. It also probably doesn't matter that neurons communicate through opening and closing ion channels, are made of carbon atoms, are constructed by protein assemblies produced from DNA, etc. What we need is to represent every necessary feature and relationship involved in manifesting consciousness. As a first pass estimation, it seems very likely that only the information-bearing structures are necessary for consciousness. But the information-bearing structures are substrate independent. It follows that a perfect simulation of these information-bearing structures engaged in their typical dynamics would be conscious. >You can simulate the interaction [...] but the two are not the same. This idea that something needs to be "the same" is doing a lot of work in your argument. But most relationships involved in brains are incidental to consciousness. We need to get clear on what the necessary features of consciousness are. This is the only measure of sameness that matters, not superficial resemblance.

amelius 2y ago

Ok, next experiment. Imagine you took a brain and replaced one neuron by a transistor (or gate) that performs the exact same function as the neuron. Now replace more and more neurons until all neurons are now transistors. Would the resulting being be conscious and experience qualia, like the original did? If not, at what point was there a notable change? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

vundercind 2y ago
The same function, down to quantum and gravity et c effects on everything around it, and accepting and reacting to same? Yeah probably, but we’re back to having to “run” this on the same arrangement of actual matter as the original. [edit] there’s an obvious attack on this, but I’ll go ahead and note my position on it: the whole premise that we can do any of this without just using actual matter the ordinary way is so far into magical territory that we might as well ask “what if lephuchans simulated it?” or “what if god imagined the simulation?”—well ok, sure, I guess if magic is involved that could work, but what’s the point of even considering it? “What if a miracle occurred?” isn’t a rebuttal to the position that consciousness as we know it likely can’t be simulated by simulating physics, because you can rebut anything with it. Its admission to a discussion is the same as giving up on figuring out anything.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > there’s an obvious attack on this, but I’ll go ahead and note my position on it: the whole premise that we can do any of this without just using actual matter the ordinary way is so far into magical territory that we might as well ask “what if lephuchans simulated it?” or “what if god imagined the simulation?”—well ok, sure, I guess if magic is involved that could work, but what’s the point of even considering it? That's one of the main points of using a thought experiment: by declaring axioms explicitly, by fiat ("true" by definition), it prevents the mind from taking advantage of thought terminating get out of jail free cards like this, it forces people to argue their point.
strogonoff 2y ago

swid 2y ago

Are you questioning if physics is computable? Even if it is not fully, we must be able to approximate it quite well. Suppose we scan more than just the person, but a local environment around them and simulated the whole box. The update that occurs as the person sits in the room involves them considering their own existence. Maybe they create art about it. If the simulation is to produce accurate results, they will need to feel alive to themselves. We agree we can simulate an explosion and get accurate results; if we can’t get an accurate simulation of a person, why?

hackinthebochs 2y ago

>It’s a little electricity moving around, looking nothing whatsoever like the real thing. Why does "looking ... like the real thing" have any relevance for consciousness? What property of a conscious substance is captured by this "looking like" criteria? Is consciousness (partially) a feature of the substrate itself or how the substrate moves through some background consciousness aether, or something else? If you can't articulate what this special criteria is, then why think a simulation isn't conscious, which by assumption reproduces all information dynamics of the physical phenomena?