7 ms·

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)

153 points by davedx 2y ago

hmarkgen 2y ago
What is striking about written documents from that era is the lucid and yet far more sophisticated writing style compared to contemporary publications. Would Licklider be happy with the AI slop that we see today? Would he be able to use LLMs in a productive manner? People in that era could be optimistic because they did not suffer from information overload. The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper.
- davedx 2y ago
  I suspect he would think ChatGPT voice is pretty close to what he envisioned for man-machine symbiosis
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- pyrale 2y ago
  They could be optimistic because they didn’t get suckered by what tech has become. It is the same kind of optimism that can be found in Engelbart’s preamble to the mother of all demos. The idea that one could treat a program delivered by google, facebook or amazon as something to cooperate with rather than use warily is much harder now than it was then.
- photochemsyn 2y ago
  Major fields of study like chaos (sensitive dependence on initial conditions within an apparently deterministic system), protein structure solving from X-ray diffraction patterns and many others would be impossible without computational assistance from machines. As far as style and tone, you can certainly get LLMs to mimic Licklider's style with suitable prompting, e.g. > "In replicating the reflective and anticipatory tone of the original text, it becomes evident that the concept of man-computer symbiosis was not merely speculative but a forecast grounded in the trajectory of technological and computational advancements. This partnership, as envisioned, holds the promise of amplifying human potential through the strategic leverage of computational power, thereby redefining the boundaries of what can be achieved through the confluence of human and machine capabilities. The profound foresight in recognizing and articulating such a partnership underscores a remarkable understanding of the complementary strengths of man and machine, heralding a new era in the evolution of technological augmentation."
  - TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
    sounds totally like an LLM.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- justin66 2y ago
  Alan Kay chats / blogs / whatever-it-is-people-do-there a lot on Quora and the question "What would be the place of AI in Doug Engelbart's vision of 'Augmenting Human Intellect'? How can we reconsider things within current AI 'developments'?" recently came up. https://www.quora.com/What-would-be-the-place-of-AI-in-Doug-Engelbarts-vision-of-Augmenting-Human-Intellect-How-can-we-reconsider-things-within-current-AI-developments/answer/Alan-Kay-11 https://www.quora.com/What-would-be-the-place-of-AI-in-Doug-...
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Thanks for the pointer, didn't know that Quora had threaded discussions. Excerpt from Alan Kay's answer: One big distinction in the 1962 time period is that they thought of “machine intelligence” as being a kind of complimentary set of thinking tools that could be “symbiotic” to how humans were able to think. They were not at all thinking about something like a slave or a major domo, but something more like a research assistant or a “Memex” (the latter was a big influence on Doug’s thinking). In the very late 60s the “official AI researchers” started to think that something like “intelligent Greek slaves” were needed for the “Romans” (Americans), and became rivals to Doug’s notion of elevating human thinking rather than just elevating power. This was a bad idea then … and it’s a bad idea today.
    - justin66 2y ago
      The ACM has got a copy of Bush's Memex paper available, it's certainly worth a read for anyone who has not: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/227181.227186 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/227181.227186 It was interesting to see that Christopher Nolan featured Vannevar Bush prominently in the recent Oppenheimer film. Stripe press published some of his writings recently as well. (I haven't read this one yet) https://press.stripe.com/pieces-of-the-action https://press.stripe.com/pieces-of-the-action
      - walterbell 2y ago
        Thanks for the memex pointers. Since Alan Kay is posting LLM takes on Quora (OpenAI partner), his singular answers will likely be incorporated into ChatGPT :)
- tolerance 2y ago
  Would he even be happy with the man-made slop and productively collaborate with other people today? > The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper. And foremost, man-man.
boguscoder 2y ago
There’s a book “The Dream Machine”* that is kinda biographical for this paper * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412
- davedx 2y ago
  Yes I read the book first 6-7 years ago! One of the best books I’ve read, up there with Skunk Works.
  - boguscoder 2y ago
    Huge props for Skunk Works! I found Dream Machine considerably harder to read (non native speaker here) but content is golden anyway
    - liendolucas 2y ago
      Author of Skunk Works? Is it related to Lockheed Martin Skunk Works division?
      - tesseract 2y ago
        Ben Rich, and yes: he was the 2nd director of the Lockheed Skunk Works. I think the book may have been out of print for a while but it's easily available now.
        liendolucas 2y ago
        Thanks, for some reason I got downvoted... Just for asking an author. HN is indeed surprising.
- criddell 2y ago
  The Stripe Press edition of the book is a beautiful product, but the font is small. I bought the book but had a hard time reading it so I got a digital copy for my ereader where I could select a larger font.
hcarvalhoalves 2y ago
That is a pretty grounded, timeless write-up for 1960. 5.4 The Language Problem The basic dissimilarity between human languages and computer languages may be the most serious obstacle to true symbiosis. LLMs unlock the much sought after capacity to query data in natural language, that is why "AI" is such a hype, besides not being intelligent (in terms of reasoning) at all.
- soloist11 2y ago
  The computer works with binary sequences. LLMs do not change this fact.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    They don't really have to. Even in Star Trek where you can tell the holodeck to do whatever in LLM fashion, there's also a lower level language that can be used for more fine control. It's always good to have levels of abstraction when you need them, this just adds the very top one that was always missing.
    - soloist11 2y ago
      The fact is that they do and it doesn't matter how many abstractions we put on top of the underlying physical reality of digital computation, it will always be digital unless someone figures out how to make analog computation as scalable as digital computation.
- nanna 2y ago
  Licklider was primarily referring to the need to suppercede punch card languages with ones with an interactive human language interface. Chiefly, McCarthy's Lisp, which he directed the Arpa/IPTOs funding towards, but it would apply to practically every language since - though in terms of interactivity still CL most of all. That said he also lead the funding of AI, so LLMs are not outside of what he was imagining altogether, for example he wrote about the need for a busy executive to communicate with his computer like he would his secretary, etc. But he also seemed to think that interactive programming environments could accomplish this goal. Sidenote, something that's forgotten is that Lick was a Lisp person. His archives contain his notes to SICP, and various toy programmes.
photochemsyn 2y ago
Impressively, the author predicts the rise of declarative programming: > "The idea may be highlighted by comparing instructions ordinarily addressed to intelligent human beings with instructions ordinarily used with computers. The latter specify precisely the individual steps to take and the sequence in which to take them. The former present or imply something about incentive or motivation, and they supply a criterion by which the human executor of the instructions will know when he has accomplished his task. In short: instructions directed to computers specify courses; instructions-directed to human beings specify goals. ... It is clear that, working within the loose constraints of predetermined strategies, computers will in due course be able to devise and simplify their own procedures for achieving stated goals."
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- georgekorsnick 2y ago
  Impressively, the author predicts the man/men-ness of our industry.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I was going to quip that "idea guys" can predict things in a useless way when having no idea how to make them a reality...but Licklider went on to have such impact on our field. It's mindblowing he was central to the creation of Arpanet and multics and so many other critical foundational bricks of today's computing.
dang 2y ago
Related. Others? Licklider 1960 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38800451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38800451 - Dec 2023 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32856009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32856009 - Sept 2022 (8 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887654 - April 2021 (8 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis by J. C. R. LICKLIDER (1960) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20642783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20642783 - Aug 2019 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18950590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18950590 - Jan 2019 (2 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302515 - May 2017 (2 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11673917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11673917 - May 2016 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis [J.C.R. Licklider] (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11534637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11534637 - April 2016 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8418654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8418654 - Oct 2014 (6 comments) Internet Antichrist [J.C.R. Licklider's Man-Computer Symbiosis] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=920121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=920121 - Nov 2009 (1 comment - article by David Byrne of all people) Also related: Who Is This “Licklider” Guy? (2008) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20442278 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20442278 - July 2019 (11 comments) J.C.R. Licklider on the History of Personal Workstations (1986) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049205 - Feb 2016 (28 comments) The Computer as a Communication Device (1968) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9014413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9014413 - Feb 2015 (2 comments) How DEC scientists imagined the Internet in 1968 -- a year before the Internet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5754287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5754287 - May 2013 (1 comment)
- olooney 2y ago
  Some related works from my notes on the extended mind thesis: The Extended Mind Thesis, Andy Clark and David Chalmers (1998) - https://www.alice.id.tue.nl/references/clark-chalmers-1998.pdf https://www.alice.id.tue.nl/references/clark-chalmers-1998.p... Man-Computer Symbiosis, J. C. R. Licklider, (1960) - https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html As We May Think, Vannevar Bush (1945) - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-m... Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework, by Douglas Engelbart (1962) - https://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html https://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html Characteristica universalis, Leibniz (c. 1679) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis Edit: Also, if you're interested in Licklider in particular, The Dream Machine is essential reading. https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-M-Mitchell-Waldrop/dp/1732265119 https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-M-Mitchell-Waldrop/dp/1...
im3w1l 2y ago
I assume that the reason this is relevant now is because of the the announcement of FinalSparks NeuroPlatform, that gives SaaS access to brain organoids? Very cool but also very creepy. Has a clear potential to become the most evil thing humanity has ever done. Checking now, it has been posted to HN a few times in the last weeks but without discussion really taking off. https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/worlds-first-bioprocessor-uses-16-human-brain-organoids-for-a-million-times-less-power-consumption-than-a-digital-chip https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/worlds-first...
kaycebasques 2y ago
> The fig tree is pollinated only by the insect Blastophaga grossorun. The larva of the insect lives in the ovary of the fig tree, and there it gets its food. The tree and the insect are thus heavily interdependent: the tree cannot reproduce without the insect; the insect cannot eat without the tree; together, they constitute not only a viable but a productive and thriving partnership. This cooperative "living together in intimate association, or even close union, of two dissimilar organisms" is called symbiosis [27]. I believe the meaning of symbiosis has evolved since 1960. Symbiosis is now an umbrella term that only implies a close association between two organisms. It doesn't necessarily imply mutual benefit anymore. A mutually beneficial association is called mutualism. An association where one benefits at the expense of the other is parasitism. Commensalism is when one benefits and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. There is also amensalism, where one is harmed and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. Symbiosis is the superset of parasitism, commensalism, amensalism, and mutualism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis It's amusing to me when people use "symbiosis" in the old sense and then I start pondering whether the thing they're describing is actually {mutual,amensal,parasit,commensal}ism
- binary132 2y ago
  FWIW, I’ve never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than mutually beneficial. I’m not able to cite this but I believe the prefix sym- may imply this.
  - kaycebasques 2y ago
    Look at the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page on the topic > Symbiosis (from Greek συμβίωσις, symbíōsis, "living with, companionship, camaraderie", from σύν, sýn, "together", and βίωσις, bíōsis, "living")[2] is any type of a close and long-term biological interaction between two biological organisms of different species, termed symbionts, be it mutualistic, commensalistic, or parasitic.[3] In 1879, Heinrich Anton de Bary defined it as "the living together of unlike organisms". The term is sometimes used in the more restricted sense of a mutually beneficial interaction in which both symbionts contribute to each other's support.[3] It acknowledges the popular use of the term while implying that the technical meaning is broader > I’ve never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than mutually beneficial This is exactly why it's so funny to me. Some snake oil salesman says "we have a symbiotic relationship with XYZ" and in my head I'm thinking "yes, a parasitic symbiotic relationship..."
ash-ishh 2y ago
https://karpathy.ai/blog/licklider1960.html https://karpathy.ai/blog/licklider1960.html
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dr_dshiv 2y ago
I think of computers as our exocortex, even more than our symbiont.
- andsoitis 2y ago
  In humans, the cerebral cortex carries out functions, like memory, thinking, learning, reasoning, problem-solving, emotions, consciousness, and sensory functions.
gnufx 2y ago
It's always worth reading the originals in a field, who typically had a clear, far-sighted view.

153 points by davedx 2y ago

What is striking about written documents from that era is the lucid and yet far more sophisticated writing style compared to contemporary publications. Would Licklider be happy with the AI slop that we see today? Would he be able to use LLMs in a productive manner? People in that era could be optimistic because they did not suffer from information overload. The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper.

davedx 2y ago
I suspect he would think ChatGPT voice is pretty close to what he envisioned for man-machine symbiosis
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
pyrale 2y ago
They could be optimistic because they didn’t get suckered by what tech has become. It is the same kind of optimism that can be found in Engelbart’s preamble to the mother of all demos. The idea that one could treat a program delivered by google, facebook or amazon as something to cooperate with rather than use warily is much harder now than it was then.
photochemsyn 2y ago
Major fields of study like chaos (sensitive dependence on initial conditions within an apparently deterministic system), protein structure solving from X-ray diffraction patterns and many others would be impossible without computational assistance from machines. As far as style and tone, you can certainly get LLMs to mimic Licklider's style with suitable prompting, e.g. > "In replicating the reflective and anticipatory tone of the original text, it becomes evident that the concept of man-computer symbiosis was not merely speculative but a forecast grounded in the trajectory of technological and computational advancements. This partnership, as envisioned, holds the promise of amplifying human potential through the strategic leverage of computational power, thereby redefining the boundaries of what can be achieved through the confluence of human and machine capabilities. The profound foresight in recognizing and articulating such a partnership underscores a remarkable understanding of the complementary strengths of man and machine, heralding a new era in the evolution of technological augmentation."
- TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
  sounds totally like an LLM.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
justin66 2y ago
Alan Kay chats / blogs / whatever-it-is-people-do-there a lot on Quora and the question "What would be the place of AI in Doug Engelbart's vision of 'Augmenting Human Intellect'? How can we reconsider things within current AI 'developments'?" recently came up. https://www.quora.com/What-would-be-the-place-of-AI-in-Doug-Engelbarts-vision-of-Augmenting-Human-Intellect-How-can-we-reconsider-things-within-current-AI-developments/answer/Alan-Kay-11 https://www.quora.com/What-would-be-the-place-of-AI-in-Doug-...
- walterbell 2y ago
  Thanks for the pointer, didn't know that Quora had threaded discussions. Excerpt from Alan Kay's answer: One big distinction in the 1962 time period is that they thought of “machine intelligence” as being a kind of complimentary set of thinking tools that could be “symbiotic” to how humans were able to think. They were not at all thinking about something like a slave or a major domo, but something more like a research assistant or a “Memex” (the latter was a big influence on Doug’s thinking). In the very late 60s the “official AI researchers” started to think that something like “intelligent Greek slaves” were needed for the “Romans” (Americans), and became rivals to Doug’s notion of elevating human thinking rather than just elevating power. This was a bad idea then … and it’s a bad idea today.
  - justin66 2y ago
    The ACM has got a copy of Bush's Memex paper available, it's certainly worth a read for anyone who has not: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/227181.227186 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/227181.227186 It was interesting to see that Christopher Nolan featured Vannevar Bush prominently in the recent Oppenheimer film. Stripe press published some of his writings recently as well. (I haven't read this one yet) https://press.stripe.com/pieces-of-the-action https://press.stripe.com/pieces-of-the-action
    - walterbell 2y ago
      Thanks for the memex pointers. Since Alan Kay is posting LLM takes on Quora (OpenAI partner), his singular answers will likely be incorporated into ChatGPT :)
tolerance 2y ago
Would he even be happy with the man-made slop and productively collaborate with other people today? > The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper. And foremost, man-man.

boguscoder 2y ago

There’s a book “The Dream Machine”* that is kinda biographical for this paper * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412

davedx 2y ago
Yes I read the book first 6-7 years ago! One of the best books I’ve read, up there with Skunk Works.
- boguscoder 2y ago
  Huge props for Skunk Works! I found Dream Machine considerably harder to read (non native speaker here) but content is golden anyway
  - liendolucas 2y ago
    Author of Skunk Works? Is it related to Lockheed Martin Skunk Works division?
    - tesseract 2y ago
      Ben Rich, and yes: he was the 2nd director of the Lockheed Skunk Works. I think the book may have been out of print for a while but it's easily available now.
      - liendolucas 2y ago
        Thanks, for some reason I got downvoted... Just for asking an author. HN is indeed surprising.
criddell 2y ago
The Stripe Press edition of the book is a beautiful product, but the font is small. I bought the book but had a hard time reading it so I got a digital copy for my ereader where I could select a larger font.

hcarvalhoalves 2y ago

That is a pretty grounded, timeless write-up for 1960. 5.4 The Language Problem The basic dissimilarity between human languages and computer languages may be the most serious obstacle to true symbiosis. LLMs unlock the much sought after capacity to query data in natural language, that is why "AI" is such a hype, besides not being intelligent (in terms of reasoning) at all.

soloist11 2y ago
The computer works with binary sequences. LLMs do not change this fact.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  They don't really have to. Even in Star Trek where you can tell the holodeck to do whatever in LLM fashion, there's also a lower level language that can be used for more fine control. It's always good to have levels of abstraction when you need them, this just adds the very top one that was always missing.
  - soloist11 2y ago
    The fact is that they do and it doesn't matter how many abstractions we put on top of the underlying physical reality of digital computation, it will always be digital unless someone figures out how to make analog computation as scalable as digital computation.
nanna 2y ago
Licklider was primarily referring to the need to suppercede punch card languages with ones with an interactive human language interface. Chiefly, McCarthy's Lisp, which he directed the Arpa/IPTOs funding towards, but it would apply to practically every language since - though in terms of interactivity still CL most of all. That said he also lead the funding of AI, so LLMs are not outside of what he was imagining altogether, for example he wrote about the need for a busy executive to communicate with his computer like he would his secretary, etc. But he also seemed to think that interactive programming environments could accomplish this goal. Sidenote, something that's forgotten is that Lick was a Lisp person. His archives contain his notes to SICP, and various toy programmes.

photochemsyn 2y ago

Impressively, the author predicts the rise of declarative programming: > "The idea may be highlighted by comparing instructions ordinarily addressed to intelligent human beings with instructions ordinarily used with computers. The latter specify precisely the individual steps to take and the sequence in which to take them. The former present or imply something about incentive or motivation, and they supply a criterion by which the human executor of the instructions will know when he has accomplished his task. In short: instructions directed to computers specify courses; instructions-directed to human beings specify goals. ... It is clear that, working within the loose constraints of predetermined strategies, computers will in due course be able to devise and simplify their own procedures for achieving stated goals."

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
georgekorsnick 2y ago
Impressively, the author predicts the man/men-ness of our industry.
makeitdouble 2y ago
I was going to quip that "idea guys" can predict things in a useless way when having no idea how to make them a reality...but Licklider went on to have such impact on our field. It's mindblowing he was central to the creation of Arpanet and multics and so many other critical foundational bricks of today's computing.

dang 2y ago

Related. Others? Licklider 1960 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38800451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38800451 - Dec 2023 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32856009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32856009 - Sept 2022 (8 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887654 - April 2021 (8 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis by J. C. R. LICKLIDER (1960) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20642783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20642783 - Aug 2019 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18950590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18950590 - Jan 2019 (2 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302515 - May 2017 (2 comments) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11673917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11673917 - May 2016 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis [J.C.R. Licklider] (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11534637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11534637 - April 2016 (1 comment) Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8418654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8418654 - Oct 2014 (6 comments) Internet Antichrist [J.C.R. Licklider's Man-Computer Symbiosis] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=920121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=920121 - Nov 2009 (1 comment - article by David Byrne of all people) Also related: Who Is This “Licklider” Guy? (2008) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20442278 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20442278 - July 2019 (11 comments) J.C.R. Licklider on the History of Personal Workstations (1986) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049205 - Feb 2016 (28 comments) The Computer as a Communication Device (1968) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9014413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9014413 - Feb 2015 (2 comments) How DEC scientists imagined the Internet in 1968 -- a year before the Internet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5754287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5754287 - May 2013 (1 comment)

olooney 2y ago
Some related works from my notes on the extended mind thesis: The Extended Mind Thesis, Andy Clark and David Chalmers (1998) - https://www.alice.id.tue.nl/references/clark-chalmers-1998.pdf https://www.alice.id.tue.nl/references/clark-chalmers-1998.p... Man-Computer Symbiosis, J. C. R. Licklider, (1960) - https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html As We May Think, Vannevar Bush (1945) - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-m... Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework, by Douglas Engelbart (1962) - https://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html https://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html Characteristica universalis, Leibniz (c. 1679) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis Edit: Also, if you're interested in Licklider in particular, The Dream Machine is essential reading. https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-M-Mitchell-Waldrop/dp/1732265119 https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-M-Mitchell-Waldrop/dp/1...

im3w1l 2y ago

I assume that the reason this is relevant now is because of the the announcement of FinalSparks NeuroPlatform, that gives SaaS access to brain organoids? Very cool but also very creepy. Has a clear potential to become the most evil thing humanity has ever done. Checking now, it has been posted to HN a few times in the last weeks but without discussion really taking off. https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/worlds-first-bioprocessor-uses-16-human-brain-organoids-for-a-million-times-less-power-consumption-than-a-digital-chip https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/worlds-first...

kaycebasques 2y ago

> The fig tree is pollinated only by the insect Blastophaga grossorun. The larva of the insect lives in the ovary of the fig tree, and there it gets its food. The tree and the insect are thus heavily interdependent: the tree cannot reproduce without the insect; the insect cannot eat without the tree; together, they constitute not only a viable but a productive and thriving partnership. This cooperative "living together in intimate association, or even close union, of two dissimilar organisms" is called symbiosis [27]. I believe the meaning of symbiosis has evolved since 1960. Symbiosis is now an umbrella term that only implies a close association between two organisms. It doesn't necessarily imply mutual benefit anymore. A mutually beneficial association is called mutualism. An association where one benefits at the expense of the other is parasitism. Commensalism is when one benefits and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. There is also amensalism, where one is harmed and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. Symbiosis is the superset of parasitism, commensalism, amensalism, and mutualism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis It's amusing to me when people use "symbiosis" in the old sense and then I start pondering whether the thing they're describing is actually {mutual,amensal,parasit,commensal}ism

binary132 2y ago
FWIW, I’ve never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than mutually beneficial. I’m not able to cite this but I believe the prefix sym- may imply this.
- kaycebasques 2y ago
  Look at the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page on the topic > Symbiosis (from Greek συμβίωσις, symbíōsis, "living with, companionship, camaraderie", from σύν, sýn, "together", and βίωσις, bíōsis, "living")[2] is any type of a close and long-term biological interaction between two biological organisms of different species, termed symbionts, be it mutualistic, commensalistic, or parasitic.[3] In 1879, Heinrich Anton de Bary defined it as "the living together of unlike organisms". The term is sometimes used in the more restricted sense of a mutually beneficial interaction in which both symbionts contribute to each other's support.[3] It acknowledges the popular use of the term while implying that the technical meaning is broader > I’ve never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than mutually beneficial This is exactly why it's so funny to me. Some snake oil salesman says "we have a symbiotic relationship with XYZ" and in my head I'm thinking "yes, a parasitic symbiotic relationship..."

ash-ishh 2y ago

https://karpathy.ai/blog/licklider1960.html https://karpathy.ai/blog/licklider1960.html

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

dr_dshiv 2y ago

I think of computers as our exocortex, even more than our symbiont.

andsoitis 2y ago
In humans, the cerebral cortex carries out functions, like memory, thinking, learning, reasoning, problem-solving, emotions, consciousness, and sensory functions.

gnufx 2y ago

It's always worth reading the originals in a field, who typically had a clear, far-sighted view.