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I'm sure the post's author doesn't need interview advice anymore but in case there are any prospective interview candidates out there, completely freezing durin
by kevmo314 2y ago
I'm sure the post's author doesn't need interview advice anymore but in case there are any prospective interview candidates out there, completely freezing during an interview is a super negative signal. Even if you need to manually multiply out 2's on a whiteboard it would be more productive than saying "I don't know".
In my experience the only reason you should say "I don't know" is if you're going to follow it with "but if I had to guess" or similar. Sounds like the interviewer definitely came on strong but being able to ace the psychological part of an interview is often as important or more important than the actual solution.
- EGG_CREAM 2y agoThat’s pretty dumb. I want to work with people who say “I don’t know.” Edit: to clarify, your advice is good, what you said isn’t dumb. That criteria is dumb, in my opinion. I don’t want my colleagues to spend a bunch of my time guessing on an answer I could easily lookup or find on a calculator.
- kevmo314 2y agoI agree, but as a candidate you don't have much control over the interviewer you get.
- EGG_CREAM 2y agoSorry, edited my comment to clarify. Your advice is good, I just don’t like that that’s how so many interviews work.
- keiferski 2y agoNo, you want to work with people that say, "I don't know, but I think X is true, and here's how I'd find out if that's a correct assumption..."
- EGG_CREAM 2y agoI really don’t, not when the question is something as simple as something I can type into a calculator.
- keiferski 2y agoThe purpose of that kind of question is not to get a piece of information, it's to evaluate how you go about solving problems that you don't know the answer to and/or don't have immediately obvious ways (like using a calculator) to find the solution.
- withinboredom 2y agoYeah, you type it into a calculator. In what universe would I need to know this answer and NOT type it into a calculator? It isn't because I can't work it out, it's because I am a dumb human who makes mistakes and if I am trying to work out that exact number, it is because it matters. And if it matters, I don't want to fuck it up.
- keiferski 2y agoWell I’m not that interviewer, but I’m pretty sure that getting the exact answer is not really the point of the exercise. Understanding how the candidate thinks, does mental calculations, etc. is the point, and anyone that is hostile to this basic exercise is probably too unpleasant to be a desirable coworker anyway.
- withinboredom 2y agoI don't know if you read that reply as hostile or just saying "hostile in general" but I can promise there was a smile on my face and it wasn't "hostile" at all. The mental calculations is a pointless exercise. Math is so incredibly different than big-system software, and it is more about working memory than anything else, and solving arbitrary math problems won't get you that feedback.
- 2y ago
- refulgentis 2y agoup front: this situation is really messed up, this is a close to the opposite of how I got taught to do interviews at google (albeit, nearly a decade later) conversely, it's reductive to compare it to a generic ban on saying "I don't know" my first job was a startup I built, starting from being a waiter. There's a lot of people who don't even try, sort of reject the premise of engaging with the question. Saying "I don't know", then looking at the interviewer, is about the least valuable interaction you can have with an interviewer, and there's a shocking # of people who do that: whether it be freezing up, some sort of implicit commentary on the question, or a form of performance art, whatever the implicit intent is, in 99% of cases, it doesn't serve you at all. If I ask you how to fluffle nuffle the snorbknobs, you can at least come back with "I don't know, I may have misheard you: I've never heard of fluffle nuffle. Can you give me a hint?". If you're at the end of your rope with tech interviews: "Excuse me, those aren't sensical words, I'm worried you're having a stroke" "I don't know" and silence is NPC stuff.
- EGG_CREAM 2y agoFair enough, I have also worked with people like that. On the other end, asking asinine questions with limitations id never have in real life is also NPC stuff. I would say if an interviewer is getting dead eyed “I don’t know” answers a lot, it says something about the questions they are asking as much as the quality of interviewees they are getting.
- IncreasePosts 2y agoIn the context of the interview, the "I don't know" is said in a situation where there is no coworker or resource to fall back on. These kinds of questions happen all the time, and the business will generally not accept "I didn't know the answer so I abandoned the whole project - sorry". If you don't know the answer, you work to find it, or you try to work around it.
- withinboredom 2y agoAsking questions irrelevant to the position is also a pretty good red flag that you don't want to work there.
- shadowgovt 2y agoYeah. As a former interviewer: this question was stupid. Don't ask a candidate to solve a problem the machine can solve trivially via brute force.
- arandomusername 2y agoThe point of the question is to see your problem solving skills, not if you have your 2s memorized. Anyone with basic math skills should be able to arrive at the answer.
- withinboredom 2y agoMy answer would have been the same. When asked to work it out, I would have pointed out that I simply wouldn't; not because I don't know how, but because if I need to know the number of bits it takes to store such a specific number, there is probably a reason. That reason could be storage of some form, such as wire protocols or files, and I don't want to fuck it up because I miss a step or misremember something. So, no, I won't even bother memorizing it, let alone, calculate it by hand.
- arandomusername 2y agoIt seems like you aren't capable of differientating between an interview and real work. This isn't an exercise to see if you can figure out how many bits it takes to store a number. It is a test to see how you approach a problem, if you can break it down (2^10 = 1024, 2^10*2^10 = 2^20 = 1m), and arrive at a solution. It's a simple problem that doesn't require you to be a math wizard.
- notarget137 2y agoI come to the interview to get a real job not to please the smart "gotcha!" recruiter.
- ninininino 2y agoI think it's a negative signal to not have the imagination to realize that anyone who has frozen during an interview due to performance anxiety is well-aware that their freezing was likely a job-candidacy-ending mistake. This is not particularly shocking information and it makes one wonder if you think they're just doing it on purpose or something or that they have control over it.
- harles 2y ago> Sounds like the interviewer definitely came on strong … Possibly, but I’m sure these aren’t exact quotes after 15 years and I expect they reflect how the author remembers feeling a lot more than the actual conversation.
- Borg3 2y agoIf you do NOT know, then answer that you do NOT know, unless you can speculate. Noone is omniscent. I really dont like when people with no knowledge trying guess the answer or speculate without any background. Im sure I would NOT want to work with such person.
- arandomusername 2y agoYou should always try to arrive at an answer before giving up. You won't get anywhere if you won't even try.
- bowsamic 2y ago> Im sure I would NOT want to work with such person. Well that's the opposite of what the interviewers are looking for. They DO want to work with such people.
- goostavos 2y agoI love these threads. They always show what an absolute dice roll the interview process is. OP rates people taking a best guess at a problem they don't know as a positive character trait, this one rates it as a character flaw. Google didn't reject the candidate, the interview loop he got rejected him for any of the myriad of knee-jerk split-second decisions made on the candidate's character in an unnatural and stressful environment. I've been in hundreds of interview loops at $Megacorp. You can stack the deck with preparation, but sometimes you just hit a loop that doesn't click with you.
- bowsamic 2y agoWell the goal is to create companies or teams with a consistent sense of what is positive vs a flaw
- goostavos 2y agoAt least in my neck of the woods, the "team" is generally only represented by the hiring manager. The rest of the loop is a mix of people from different teams, orgs, and roles, all pulling in their own direction.
- pelorat 2y agoI don't know is the correct answer. I would have brought out "get me your boss" them followed by "your recruiter is an (r-word)"
- nine_zeros 2y ago> completely freezing during an interview is a super negative signal. I am sure you also go to your employers and tell them that asking super unnatural questions in a super unnatural pressure environment is also a super negative signal. You do this right? Right?
- fragmede 2y agoyou don't?
- swatcoder 2y agoIndeed. Those interviews measure whether you can dutifully perform the dance the organization wants you to. But if that doesn't come naturally to them, "prospective interview candidates" might also consider if that's really a problem. There remain plenty of fantastic engineering opportunities that don't involve memorizing dance steps.
- kevmo314 2y agoVery true. Unfortunately a lot of the junior engineers I've spoken with would be happy to have any job and can't afford to be picky anymore. Such is the state of the hiring market :(
- robofanatic 2y agoIts subjective. I think "I don't know" is a honest and better answer than to pretend that you know and waste interviewer's time.
- nitwit005 2y agoVery few of us have had to do difficult math in a high pressure social situation. Having someone sitting there and pushing for instant answers is just going to sink most candidates for no real reason. I've found you often need to directly ask the interviewer not to do what they're doing when they try this sort of thing. Sometimes they're just bored and want to talk because there has been a moment of silence, or because they're enamored with their interview question.
- arandomusername 2y agoDifficult math? You just have to multiply 2s until you reach >56mil, and you can just round up (i.e 16k -> 32k -> 64k).
- nitwit005 2y agoDifficult enough to need some time to think, yes. If it was trivial, there'd be no point in asking.
- arandomusername 2y agoFew minutes maybe. It's a beginning question to get you warmed up.
- snozolli 2y agoin case there are any prospective interview candidates out there, completely freezing during an interview is a super negative signal. Remember to take you Vyvanse so that you can stay focused, and make sure to throw in some beta blockers so that you stay calm during this toxic hellscape of modern interviewing.
- toastercat 2y agoI always remember this old blog post: https://aneccodeal.blogspot.com/2014/02/interviewing-for-anxious-programmer.html https://aneccodeal.blogspot.com/2014/02/interviewing-for-anx... I haven't done a whiteboarding interview for a while, but I remember them vividly. Hot flashes, sweating, stomach churning, anytime I'd be asked a question I am definitely capable of answering, my brain would shut down and refuse to start back up again. The most apt thing I could compare it to is stage fright. Even something like simply multiplying 2's would seem impossible to me in that state of mind. Aside from seeking professional help for dealing with anxiety, I'd recommend programmers with anxiety to avoid whiteboarding interviews [1] or at the very least let it be known ahead of time that you get stage fright. [1] https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards
- ryandrake 2y agoYea, the problem with the high-stakes, high-pressure whiteboard-hazing interview is that it is not testing a candidate's problem solving ability. It's testing their comfort level and ability to navigate high-stakes presentation/communication pressure cookers. Which may be great if you're looking for an unflappable smooth talking PM who will be doing presentations to VPs, but probably not great if you are looking for an engineer to solve your software problems while chilling out in their Aeron chair. That's my big problem (both as an interviewer and as an interviewee) with the current "best practices" in tech interviews. We're evaluating the wrong thing. This is how smooth talking, charismatic phonies breeze through and we find out in 6 months they can't code. Unfortunately by then, they've often gotten themselves promoted to Director.
- fragmede 2y agothus, take-home interview questions, but unfortunately those can be gamed too. The real one is referrals - someone you know's actually worked with them before and has good things to say, but the idea of a programmer's guild does not jive for some.
- cloverich 2y agoOne of my favorite bombs is I was asked a "real" coding question, basically a function that returns some config or another function. Anyways they somewhat lead you into a simple if statement, or a switch in my case, and then dump more examples until you come up with using a map instead. Which is something I didn't do in the interview, and most definitely (implicitly) failed. It wasn't until I was back on my side project, happily solving the same problem but using a map of course (i dont generally use switch statements in my actual code). Oh, duh lol, that's what they were asking me. They probably think I don't know how to program. That was a turning point for me, because as far as questions go it was very fair. And yet, it had the same effect. 20 interviews later I was acing far more difficult questions, being rather polished (and ahem, interview questions aren't generally very unique). So I guess I interviews at that place too early. Maybe its useful? IDK. For me personally, it seems like really good people have a track record of shipping good stuff (or doing other good things in life), and can generally explain what it is and how it works. They usually have former colleagues you can talk to as well. Some of them even have side projects you can look at. But ah when the interview mill is in full steam, its hard to individualize to the candidate. We have a feature factory sir, and what we need are some good cogs. That's how you maximize the value you achieve from a developer after all!
- JojoFatsani 2y agoI’d rather someone tell me they don’t know something than feed me a line of BS then show up to the job and not be able to do it. Not that leetcode is necessarily a true indicator of competency.