5 ms·

Express for Desktop allows for non-metro development in Visual Studio 2012

67 points by ryanmolden 14y ago

asadotzler 14y ago
This is smart move by Microsoft. As much as they'd like the win32-land and the now legacy Desktop to disappear, it will not happen in one release.
- bztzt 14y ago
  Or ever, IMO. It will be like C++ vs. C#.
- aninteger 14y ago
  I'm not sure they want those to disappear. Some of Microsoft's own products are written using Win32, like Office, and Internet Explorer. I think this is more about providing a C++ compiler for developers that are unable to spend the $499 on Visual Studio Professional.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Why, oh why, oh why do people think this when there is nothing to indicate that whatsoever?
  - nhebb 14y ago
    Because they keep acting like it. As say this as someone who develops Windows desktop apps. You might have valid counterarguments to that, but that is the perception I have and I don't think I'm alone.
    - bztzt 14y ago
      I really think it's just that Metro/WinRT is the new thing, they're always going to be trumpeting the new features of the new release as if they're the only thing anyone should care about, that's unfortunately a Microsoft habit. The desktop will quietly continue to persist and evolve. I don't expect much success with Windows 8, due to a combination of there being a lot of genuine rough edges and gaps in the new environment and in how it relates to the desktop, most people not really feeling a need for a new version of Windows right now anyway, and people's normal resistance to change. However, they'll probably continue to improve the Metro stuff in future Windows versions, and eventually it will just become another boring established part of Windows that everyone takes for granted. At which point it won't be the new shiny anymore and balance will be restored.
MichaelGG 14y ago
Well this restores my faith somewhat; glad to see the focus on Metro isn't non-negotiable. VS 2005 had a similar problem, when it just dropped support for the Web App (precompiled) style in favour of an ASP/PHP model. Right after shipping they released an update to restore the removed feature.
jlgreco 14y ago
I wonder if this "Desktop" version will have the ALL CAPS menu titles. Their rational for that in the regular version iirc is that it fits with metro better for some reason. It would be strange to make a non-metro version of Visual Studio have those menus with that rational, but it would also be weird to have two versions of Visual Studio, one with capped menus and the other without.
- nlawalker 14y ago
  VS is not a Metro app: All versions of Visual Studio run on the desktop - what this article is referring to is a free version of VS with the capability to create desktop apps, which was removed from the free version of VS2012 that was already announced. The all-caps menus are part of the Metro "design language," which is related to but separate from actual Metro applications that run within the new non-desktop interface. Additionally, it's already been revealed that there will be a setting to return the menus to regular capitalization, and it can be done in the beta via a registry key.
  - ryanmolden 14y ago
    Not true (to my knowledge) it hasn't been stated there will be any such exposed setting (to my knowledge, if I am wrong feel free to cite sources). There is a reg key switch, but there are lots of reg key switches in VS. Edit: As drivebyacct2 points out below I am wrong, it HAS in fact been officially stated. I don't see any attribution on the blog entry, but I suspect I know who wrote it and it is an official Microsoft blog, so that is a public announcement. Done and done.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      I have seen speculation here on HN that it would be a setting, and maybe even that they would change the default. Only speculation though.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Geez, it was posted yesterday. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/05/a-design-with-all-caps.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/05/a-de... >That said, we will enable you to customize the casing, and we are exploring options for how to expose that choice. We will post again once we’ve settled on a final approach to be available in RTM.
aninteger 14y ago
So, is Express for Desktop the only wait to get a free C++ compiler from Microsoft now? Last I read, they removed the C++ compiler and C runtime from the Windows SDK. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.as... As long as they continue to ship a C++ compiler freely, I'll be happy.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  GCC?
chrisdevereux 14y ago
So have they restored the ability to use Win32 in VS Express? Or just the ability to write .NET/WinRT apps that target the Windows 8 desktop environment? It's not clear from the announcement.
- ryanmolden 14y ago
  >Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop will provide a simple, end-to-end development experience for developing Windows desktop applications targeted to run on all versions of Windows supported by Visual Studio 2012. From my reading of corporate speak this appears to say that you can use Express Desktop 2012 (VNext Ultimate Web Cloud Edition :)) to write apps that target Vista, Windows 7 or Windows 8. Since WinRT is Win8+ only that would seem to imply 'down level' apps would need to be written in something else. The primary candidates would seem to be WPF/Silverlight, MFC, Winforms or Win32. Since Winforms/MFC are just thin wrappers over the Win32 APIs I think it would be torturous to try and make an IDE that allowed writing WinForms/MFC but somehow prevented direct Win32 access (especially given the ability to simply use pInvoke from managed code).
  - chrisdevereux 14y ago
    Ah, good spot!
madrona 14y ago
What made them make that decision in the first place? Didn't they know it would lead to significant blowback? I bet the VS devs weren't the ones that made it.
- WayneDB 14y ago
  Maybe it's a marketing thing. Controversy breeds attention.

67 points by ryanmolden 14y ago

This is smart move by Microsoft. As much as they'd like the win32-land and the now legacy Desktop to disappear, it will not happen in one release.

bztzt 14y ago
Or ever, IMO. It will be like C++ vs. C#.
aninteger 14y ago
I'm not sure they want those to disappear. Some of Microsoft's own products are written using Win32, like Office, and Internet Explorer. I think this is more about providing a C++ compiler for developers that are unable to spend the $499 on Visual Studio Professional.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Why, oh why, oh why do people think this when there is nothing to indicate that whatsoever?
- nhebb 14y ago
  Because they keep acting like it. As say this as someone who develops Windows desktop apps. You might have valid counterarguments to that, but that is the perception I have and I don't think I'm alone.
  - bztzt 14y ago
    I really think it's just that Metro/WinRT is the new thing, they're always going to be trumpeting the new features of the new release as if they're the only thing anyone should care about, that's unfortunately a Microsoft habit. The desktop will quietly continue to persist and evolve. I don't expect much success with Windows 8, due to a combination of there being a lot of genuine rough edges and gaps in the new environment and in how it relates to the desktop, most people not really feeling a need for a new version of Windows right now anyway, and people's normal resistance to change. However, they'll probably continue to improve the Metro stuff in future Windows versions, and eventually it will just become another boring established part of Windows that everyone takes for granted. At which point it won't be the new shiny anymore and balance will be restored.

MichaelGG 14y ago

Well this restores my faith somewhat; glad to see the focus on Metro isn't non-negotiable. VS 2005 had a similar problem, when it just dropped support for the Web App (precompiled) style in favour of an ASP/PHP model. Right after shipping they released an update to restore the removed feature.

jlgreco 14y ago

I wonder if this "Desktop" version will have the ALL CAPS menu titles. Their rational for that in the regular version iirc is that it fits with metro better for some reason. It would be strange to make a non-metro version of Visual Studio have those menus with that rational, but it would also be weird to have two versions of Visual Studio, one with capped menus and the other without.

nlawalker 14y ago
VS is not a Metro app: All versions of Visual Studio run on the desktop - what this article is referring to is a free version of VS with the capability to create desktop apps, which was removed from the free version of VS2012 that was already announced. The all-caps menus are part of the Metro "design language," which is related to but separate from actual Metro applications that run within the new non-desktop interface. Additionally, it's already been revealed that there will be a setting to return the menus to regular capitalization, and it can be done in the beta via a registry key.
- ryanmolden 14y ago
  Not true (to my knowledge) it hasn't been stated there will be any such exposed setting (to my knowledge, if I am wrong feel free to cite sources). There is a reg key switch, but there are lots of reg key switches in VS. Edit: As drivebyacct2 points out below I am wrong, it HAS in fact been officially stated. I don't see any attribution on the blog entry, but I suspect I know who wrote it and it is an official Microsoft blog, so that is a public announcement. Done and done.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I have seen speculation here on HN that it would be a setting, and maybe even that they would change the default. Only speculation though.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Geez, it was posted yesterday. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/05/a-design-with-all-caps.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/05/a-de... >That said, we will enable you to customize the casing, and we are exploring options for how to expose that choice. We will post again once we’ve settled on a final approach to be available in RTM.

aninteger 14y ago

So, is Express for Desktop the only wait to get a free C++ compiler from Microsoft now? Last I read, they removed the C++ compiler and C runtime from the Windows SDK. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.as... As long as they continue to ship a C++ compiler freely, I'll be happy.

MatthewPhillips 14y ago
GCC?

chrisdevereux 14y ago

So have they restored the ability to use Win32 in VS Express? Or just the ability to write .NET/WinRT apps that target the Windows 8 desktop environment? It's not clear from the announcement.

ryanmolden 14y ago
>Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop will provide a simple, end-to-end development experience for developing Windows desktop applications targeted to run on all versions of Windows supported by Visual Studio 2012. From my reading of corporate speak this appears to say that you can use Express Desktop 2012 (VNext Ultimate Web Cloud Edition :)) to write apps that target Vista, Windows 7 or Windows 8. Since WinRT is Win8+ only that would seem to imply 'down level' apps would need to be written in something else. The primary candidates would seem to be WPF/Silverlight, MFC, Winforms or Win32. Since Winforms/MFC are just thin wrappers over the Win32 APIs I think it would be torturous to try and make an IDE that allowed writing WinForms/MFC but somehow prevented direct Win32 access (especially given the ability to simply use pInvoke from managed code).
- chrisdevereux 14y ago
  Ah, good spot!

madrona 14y ago

What made them make that decision in the first place? Didn't they know it would lead to significant blowback? I bet the VS devs weren't the ones that made it.

WayneDB 14y ago
Maybe it's a marketing thing. Controversy breeds attention.