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If you ever get the chance, go shoot some small caliber weapons. I think everyone should at some point to have a baseline in their head for what guns are. Plus,

If you ever get the chance, go shoot some small caliber weapons. I think everyone should at some point to have a baseline in their head for what guns are. Plus, I think it’d be good for people to know you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. And then if you have a chance to be around some small artillery, do that too. It’s hard to describe the difference. (“You” here is used to address HN in general, not you personally)

jrflowers 2y ago
“Can you sustain brain damage by being exposed to a smaller amount of concussive force?” “Great question, did you know if you zig and zag you become impervious to bullet :)”
- ds_opseeker 2y ago
  Bit of a difference between "hard to hit" and "impervious"
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    You take 0 damage from 100% of the bullets you zig
- zaptrem 2y ago
  I interpreted it as “there’s such a big difference between artillery and a handgun you clearly have never been around an actual gun being fired before” Still snarky, but there is a point.
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    How does saying “you should expose yourself to both things if you possibly can” express that there is a difference between the two? I suppose I can imagine that GP said that you can feel the difference between levels of brain damage incurred (they did not), but even if that were the case then why would you encourage someone to expose themselves to artillery if you thought the damage was more than zero? “The damage from both is different but also zero if you zig zag check mate 8-)”
    - financltravsty 2y ago
      "It's hard to describe the difference"
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - jrflowers 2y ago
        “The difference” in brain damage? Between two things he suggests doing?
        p51-remorse 2y ago
        I’m only going to engage with you once, because I think you’re being deliberately obtuse in your comments. The following is in case you’re being genuine, and for other’s benefit: There are several orders of magnitude difference between a 9mm handgun and a small artillery round. The difference is in terms of concussive force. If you shoot a handgun with earplugs in, you hear a pop that sounds kind of like dropping a small ball bearing on a wood floor. You feel a shock in your wrists and a bit in your elbows, like high-fiving someone. Now, you stand a few yards from artillery - and I’m talking Korean war artillery, not modern stuff. Also not talking about reenactment stuff; they usually just put a bit of black powder in there. I’m talking about small tow-behind artillery that you’d see at the Big Sandy Shoot (Google it). You _feel_ the sound before you hear it. You’ll look for some shooting muffs to put on _over_ your earplugs. The concussive force comes through the ground, through the air, moves through your head and stimulates your eardrums from the backside. You feel your guts vibrate a bit. It feels like the ground moved under you, like you’re landing after jumping in the air. And _that_ is an order of magnitude or so below what we’re talking about with SEALs here - those guys are placing explosive with a sticky backing on doors, and torching it off from not very far away. There’s stories from them of not being able to get physically “far enough” from a charge, and having to detonate it anyway because you’re in a freaking war zone. When a SEAL says “oh, this is going to fucking suck” before pushing a button, you know it’s real.
        2y ago
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    What did GP say about brain damage at all? Downthread he mentions people shooting 9mm pistols with hearing protection and navy SEALS as if they are the only two groups while not mentioning brain damage at all. Aside from the cavalier “I know something you don’t” there was nothing of any value posted.
Mistletoe 2y ago
https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Being-Shot https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Being-Shot Intrigued, I got some info from wikihow. > If you are a fast runner or have bad knees, run in a straight line away from the attacker towards cover. The faster you can get away, the fewer shots they will be able to fire. >If you are a slower runner and do not have knee trouble, a zig-zag run may be a better option. You may still be hit in this case, but the chances of being hit in a vital area may be reduced.
- p51-remorse 2y ago
  I’m guessing there aren’t many studies on this, but as a young, fast runner I’d zigzag every time if they’re shooting _at_ me. At least run in a straight line that isn’t collinear with the shooter’s position. Obviously, if you can find cover, put it between you and them and cover distance. It’s so, so hard for any amateur to hit a target that is moving radially in a polar coordinate system centered on them, at all. I’d bet your average shooter who makes the news can’t put 7/10 shots in a stationary silhouette at 10yd. It’s harder than you’d think.
  - justin66 2y ago
    > I’m guessing there aren’t many studies on this Yeah. Researchers would have liked to interview them, but all the people who zig-zagged in favor of running as fast as they could are dead.
  - el_benhameen 2y ago
    A classic scene on the subject: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szcviFDt9xM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szcviFDt9xM Fictional, but based on a real event.
    - reducesuffering 2y ago
      I was thinking more Always Sunny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZ9sIrjXpM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZ9sIrjXpM
  - 2y ago
BalinKing 2y ago
Tangentially related: Caltech has a cannon on campus (most notable for being stolen by MIT in 2006)[0] that fires twice per quarter, once towards the beginning and once towards the end. It is loud—you can hear it on the other end of campus[1]. Although to be fair, I don't know what they put in it and/or how the blank's loudness would compare to a modern artillery piece firing an actual projectile.... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltech%E2%80%93MIT_rivalry#2006_Fleming_cannon_heist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltech%E2%80%93MIT_rivalry#20... [1] (which is, admittedly, pretty small)
ocschwar 2y ago
I've taken pistol and rifle classes. And as a Boy Scout I was in a troop that strayed close to a proving ground. Yeah, there's a very big difference. I mean a BIG DIFFERENCE
FactKnower69 2y ago
>Plus, I think it’d be good for people to know you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. I hope they never invent a gun that fires more than once per trigger pull, then you would be able to just sweep it around in the general direction of Invincible Mr. Zig
- hughesjj 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpNU3WumPFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpNU3WumPFQ
krisoft 2y ago
> you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. Idk if i would trust my life with that. What if they just spray a bunch of bullets in the general direction I am? Also what is the minimum distance where this tactic becomes effective? I just can’t imagine that zigzagging helps that much when you are 2 meters away from the shooter. And then there is the question of what is the typical distance between the shooter and the victim in most gun violence scenarios. Would not be surprised if that is inside the “zigzag helps you” distance. Besides… how would going to a range and shooting guns help one learn this information? It feels what you really would need is someone practicing running away from someone with murderous intent to get an intuitive understanding of what you are claiming. And of course people are reluctant to practice that.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  > What if they just spray a bunch of bullets in the general direction I am? From what I understand, real soldiers generally don't spray bullets like you see in movies or video games unless they are in a defensive machine gun nest or on some sort of vehicle. Ammo is an extremely finite and precious resource on the battlefield. You can't carry much with you, and you don't necessarily know when you can resupply, so every shot has to count. If you spray bullets you'll be out within seconds and then you're on a battlefield unarmed. Not good. > And then there is the question of what is the typical distance between the shooter and the victim in most gun violence scenarios. In a war? Can be quite high. > how would going to a range and shooting guns help one learn this information? Ranges have moving targets, you try to hit them and observe that it's hard.
  - jajko 2y ago
    A standard NATO soldier should carry 210 rounds of 5.56 ammo. That's 7 30-magazine clips if he actually has all of them in clips. If you ever saw any combat video, soldiers often fire a LOT, experienced or not (experienced just tend to hit more often). Maybe not a full auto, but nobody thinks in '1 bullet per enemy' mentality, self-preservation makes you overdo it, and they train you to not save on ammo unless you are cut off from supplies. > U.S. forces have expended at least 250,000 small-caliber bullets for every insurgent killed in the present wars Think about that number for a second. Technically, 1000 fully equipped NATO soldiers fire all their carried ammo per 1 single dead enemy. Life ain't Call of Duty.
bitwize 2y ago
I was the victim of an attempted robbery in NYC. I had fired a pistol before, so when the robber threatened me with one (which he may or may not have had) I did some mental calculations and came to the conclusion to run, hard, in the direction where there seemed to be the most people. If he had a piece on him, by the time he drew it from his hoodie and aimed, I would be far enough away to make an accurate shot difficult... and if he missed he might hit someone down the road. I calculated he wouldn't be stupid enough to risk it.

jrflowers 2y ago

“Can you sustain brain damage by being exposed to a smaller amount of concussive force?” “Great question, did you know if you zig and zag you become impervious to bullet :)”

ds_opseeker 2y ago
Bit of a difference between "hard to hit" and "impervious"
- jrflowers 2y ago
  You take 0 damage from 100% of the bullets you zig
zaptrem 2y ago
I interpreted it as “there’s such a big difference between artillery and a handgun you clearly have never been around an actual gun being fired before” Still snarky, but there is a point.
- jrflowers 2y ago
  How does saying “you should expose yourself to both things if you possibly can” express that there is a difference between the two? I suppose I can imagine that GP said that you can feel the difference between levels of brain damage incurred (they did not), but even if that were the case then why would you encourage someone to expose themselves to artillery if you thought the damage was more than zero? “The damage from both is different but also zero if you zig zag check mate 8-)”
  - financltravsty 2y ago
    "It's hard to describe the difference"
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - jrflowers 2y ago
      “The difference” in brain damage? Between two things he suggests doing?
      - p51-remorse 2y ago
        I’m only going to engage with you once, because I think you’re being deliberately obtuse in your comments. The following is in case you’re being genuine, and for other’s benefit: There are several orders of magnitude difference between a 9mm handgun and a small artillery round. The difference is in terms of concussive force. If you shoot a handgun with earplugs in, you hear a pop that sounds kind of like dropping a small ball bearing on a wood floor. You feel a shock in your wrists and a bit in your elbows, like high-fiving someone. Now, you stand a few yards from artillery - and I’m talking Korean war artillery, not modern stuff. Also not talking about reenactment stuff; they usually just put a bit of black powder in there. I’m talking about small tow-behind artillery that you’d see at the Big Sandy Shoot (Google it). You _feel_ the sound before you hear it. You’ll look for some shooting muffs to put on _over_ your earplugs. The concussive force comes through the ground, through the air, moves through your head and stimulates your eardrums from the backside. You feel your guts vibrate a bit. It feels like the ground moved under you, like you’re landing after jumping in the air. And _that_ is an order of magnitude or so below what we’re talking about with SEALs here - those guys are placing explosive with a sticky backing on doors, and torching it off from not very far away. There’s stories from them of not being able to get physically “far enough” from a charge, and having to detonate it anyway because you’re in a freaking war zone. When a SEAL says “oh, this is going to fucking suck” before pushing a button, you know it’s real.
        2y ago
- jrflowers 2y ago
  What did GP say about brain damage at all? Downthread he mentions people shooting 9mm pistols with hearing protection and navy SEALS as if they are the only two groups while not mentioning brain damage at all. Aside from the cavalier “I know something you don’t” there was nothing of any value posted.

Mistletoe 2y ago

https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Being-Shot https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Being-Shot Intrigued, I got some info from wikihow. > If you are a fast runner or have bad knees, run in a straight line away from the attacker towards cover. The faster you can get away, the fewer shots they will be able to fire. >If you are a slower runner and do not have knee trouble, a zig-zag run may be a better option. You may still be hit in this case, but the chances of being hit in a vital area may be reduced.

p51-remorse 2y ago
I’m guessing there aren’t many studies on this, but as a young, fast runner I’d zigzag every time if they’re shooting _at_ me. At least run in a straight line that isn’t collinear with the shooter’s position. Obviously, if you can find cover, put it between you and them and cover distance. It’s so, so hard for any amateur to hit a target that is moving radially in a polar coordinate system centered on them, at all. I’d bet your average shooter who makes the news can’t put 7/10 shots in a stationary silhouette at 10yd. It’s harder than you’d think.
- justin66 2y ago
  > I’m guessing there aren’t many studies on this Yeah. Researchers would have liked to interview them, but all the people who zig-zagged in favor of running as fast as they could are dead.
- el_benhameen 2y ago
  A classic scene on the subject: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szcviFDt9xM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szcviFDt9xM Fictional, but based on a real event.
  - reducesuffering 2y ago
    I was thinking more Always Sunny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZ9sIrjXpM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZ9sIrjXpM
- 2y ago

BalinKing 2y ago

Tangentially related: Caltech has a cannon on campus (most notable for being stolen by MIT in 2006)[0] that fires twice per quarter, once towards the beginning and once towards the end. It is loud—you can hear it on the other end of campus[1]. Although to be fair, I don't know what they put in it and/or how the blank's loudness would compare to a modern artillery piece firing an actual projectile.... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltech%E2%80%93MIT_rivalry#2006_Fleming_cannon_heist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltech%E2%80%93MIT_rivalry#20... [1] (which is, admittedly, pretty small)

ocschwar 2y ago

I've taken pistol and rifle classes. And as a Boy Scout I was in a troop that strayed close to a proving ground. Yeah, there's a very big difference. I mean a BIG DIFFERENCE

FactKnower69 2y ago

>Plus, I think it’d be good for people to know you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. I hope they never invent a gun that fires more than once per trigger pull, then you would be able to just sweep it around in the general direction of Invincible Mr. Zig

hughesjj 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpNU3WumPFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpNU3WumPFQ

krisoft 2y ago

> you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. Idk if i would trust my life with that. What if they just spray a bunch of bullets in the general direction I am? Also what is the minimum distance where this tactic becomes effective? I just can’t imagine that zigzagging helps that much when you are 2 meters away from the shooter. And then there is the question of what is the typical distance between the shooter and the victim in most gun violence scenarios. Would not be surprised if that is inside the “zigzag helps you” distance. Besides… how would going to a range and shooting guns help one learn this information? It feels what you really would need is someone practicing running away from someone with murderous intent to get an intuitive understanding of what you are claiming. And of course people are reluctant to practice that.

mike_hearn 2y ago
> What if they just spray a bunch of bullets in the general direction I am? From what I understand, real soldiers generally don't spray bullets like you see in movies or video games unless they are in a defensive machine gun nest or on some sort of vehicle. Ammo is an extremely finite and precious resource on the battlefield. You can't carry much with you, and you don't necessarily know when you can resupply, so every shot has to count. If you spray bullets you'll be out within seconds and then you're on a battlefield unarmed. Not good. > And then there is the question of what is the typical distance between the shooter and the victim in most gun violence scenarios. In a war? Can be quite high. > how would going to a range and shooting guns help one learn this information? Ranges have moving targets, you try to hit them and observe that it's hard.
- jajko 2y ago
  A standard NATO soldier should carry 210 rounds of 5.56 ammo. That's 7 30-magazine clips if he actually has all of them in clips. If you ever saw any combat video, soldiers often fire a LOT, experienced or not (experienced just tend to hit more often). Maybe not a full auto, but nobody thinks in '1 bullet per enemy' mentality, self-preservation makes you overdo it, and they train you to not save on ammo unless you are cut off from supplies. > U.S. forces have expended at least 250,000 small-caliber bullets for every insurgent killed in the present wars Think about that number for a second. Technically, 1000 fully equipped NATO soldiers fire all their carried ammo per 1 single dead enemy. Life ain't Call of Duty.

bitwize 2y ago

I was the victim of an attempted robbery in NYC. I had fired a pistol before, so when the robber threatened me with one (which he may or may not have had) I did some mental calculations and came to the conclusion to run, hard, in the direction where there seemed to be the most people. If he had a piece on him, by the time he drew it from his hoodie and aimed, I would be far enough away to make an accurate shot difficult... and if he missed he might hit someone down the road. I calculated he wouldn't be stupid enough to risk it.