5 ms·

While I do think the overall point of the article is an interesting one, it seems to me an odd assumption that the life of a single cow is somehow equal to the

by yosito 2y ago

While I do think the overall point of the article is an interesting one, it seems to me an odd assumption that the life of a single cow is somehow equal to the life of a single chicken or a single fish. At what point does it stop being equal? Is the life of a human equal to the life of a mosquito?

satvikpendem 2y ago
It seems like the sibling comment is exactly what you're asking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40847318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40847318
stabbles 2y ago
The handbook for utilitarians prescribes that the life of one cow is worth the life of seven chickens
adriand 2y ago
Why wouldn’t the life of a cow be equivalent to the life of a chicken though? I’m not asking rhetorically. As soon as you get into gradations of value based on things like size or perceived intelligence, things get muddy pretty quickly. For instance, we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. Similarly, we don’t value adult humans based on their intelligence. Perhaps the metric should be capacity for suffering and our goal should be to minimize suffering. Does a human have greater capacity for suffering than a mosquito? I think there are many good reasons to think yes. Does a cow have greater capacity for suffering than a chicken? I don’t know that that is nearly as clear.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  > For instance, we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. Similarly, we don’t value adult humans based on their intelligence. On the contrary, children are valued higher than adults, generally speaking. We _absolutely_ value adult humans based on their intelligence, this is generally reflected in things like… salary. What are you on about? > Does a cow have greater capacity for suffering than a chicken? You have quite obviously never spent time around either chickens or cows if you think this is some sort of salient point. It’s not.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Can’t edit: chickens are awful animals, and having known a handful of chicken farmers, they’re universally despised. Cows are the opposite in just about every way.
- Concrete3286 2y ago
  I suppose that to a person who a) is already eating beef burgers and b) is considering swapping the meat in their burger to chicken for environmental reasons, the value of the life of a cow and the life of a chicken are both functionally nil. Perhaps not "without value", but too difficult to quantify against each other to be meaningful when decision making.
- nradov 2y ago
  Why does capacity for suffering matter? How do we quantify suffering? Can you prove that plants and fungi don't suffer?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >Does a cow have greater capacity for suffering than a chicken? I don’t know that that is nearly as clear. If you have much experience with cows and chickens, I think the difference in capacity for suffering is pretty clear. >we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. Similarly, we don’t value adult humans based on their intelligence. I think when forced into a decision, humans and societies will make distinctions along these lines. e.g. saving the mother or child during birth or famine, Prioritizing scientists or even sacrificing soldiers during wartime.
  - adriand 2y ago
    > If you have much experience with cows and chickens, I think the difference in capacity for suffering is pretty clear. I’m not saying there is no difference - they are different species so we wouldn’t expect them to have an identical experience of pain and deprivation - but rather that the difference is not easily quantifiable. We are not able to access the interior lives of these animals. And in practice, I suspect many people would be as reluctant to rip the wing off a live chicken as the ear from a cow, while showing few misgivings about squashing an ant. That is to say, in practice most people are likely to behave as if the moral stances toward cows and chickens are roughly equivalent. In terms of being forced into decisions to value one human life over another, that doesn’t change the fact that morally and ethically we value human lives equally. We don’t extrapolate from emergencies to posit that one mom = three children. In any case, what bearing does this have on the problem at hand? If one cow’s life is morally equivalent to a non-singular number of chickens, how many chickens are we choosing, and why?
    - depressedpanda 2y ago
      > that doesn’t change the fact that morally and ethically we value human lives equally. Do we? I can think of many counter examples, and I'm sure you can as well. How is this a fact?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      >In terms of being forced into decisions to value one human life over another, that doesn’t change the fact that morally and ethically we value human lives equally. Doesn't it? There are stated valuations and then revealed valuations on life. When asking what people really think and feel, I think it is relevant to look at how they act when their behavior is contingent. Anyone can make arbitrary claims when they are not tested. Anyways, I agree that this all a tangent from the main point. >That is to say, in practice most people are likely to behave as if the moral stances toward cows and chickens are roughly equivalent. This is where I think we disagree. I think most people would have a pretty difference emotional and psychological experience killing a cow or chicken. This ties back to the concept of claimed belief vs revealed beliefs.
- antisthenes 2y ago
  > For instance, we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. It's an interesting example, because we actually kind of do. If I'm not mistaken, in case of difficult pregnancies, saving the mother is favored compared to saving the child/fetus. When it comes to valuing life in general, things are going to get muddy no matter how you look at it. Valuing females over males? Already happening. Children over adults? Sometimes. Healthy over disabled? Occasionally. And that's just between different "categories" of people.
1234554321a 2y ago
One cow costs $2500, one chicken costs $10. So one cow life is worth approximately 250 chicken lives. Q.E.D.

by yosito 2y ago

satvikpendem 2y ago

It seems like the sibling comment is exactly what you're asking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40847318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40847318

stabbles 2y ago

The handbook for utilitarians prescribes that the life of one cow is worth the life of seven chickens

adriand 2y ago

Why wouldn’t the life of a cow be equivalent to the life of a chicken though? I’m not asking rhetorically. As soon as you get into gradations of value based on things like size or perceived intelligence, things get muddy pretty quickly. For instance, we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. Similarly, we don’t value adult humans based on their intelligence. Perhaps the metric should be capacity for suffering and our goal should be to minimize suffering. Does a human have greater capacity for suffering than a mosquito? I think there are many good reasons to think yes. Does a cow have greater capacity for suffering than a chicken? I don’t know that that is nearly as clear.

dgfitz 2y ago
> For instance, we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. Similarly, we don’t value adult humans based on their intelligence. On the contrary, children are valued higher than adults, generally speaking. We _absolutely_ value adult humans based on their intelligence, this is generally reflected in things like… salary. What are you on about? > Does a cow have greater capacity for suffering than a chicken? You have quite obviously never spent time around either chickens or cows if you think this is some sort of salient point. It’s not.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Can’t edit: chickens are awful animals, and having known a handful of chicken farmers, they’re universally despised. Cows are the opposite in just about every way.
Concrete3286 2y ago
I suppose that to a person who a) is already eating beef burgers and b) is considering swapping the meat in their burger to chicken for environmental reasons, the value of the life of a cow and the life of a chicken are both functionally nil. Perhaps not "without value", but too difficult to quantify against each other to be meaningful when decision making.
nradov 2y ago
Why does capacity for suffering matter? How do we quantify suffering? Can you prove that plants and fungi don't suffer?
s1artibartfast 2y ago
>Does a cow have greater capacity for suffering than a chicken? I don’t know that that is nearly as clear. If you have much experience with cows and chickens, I think the difference in capacity for suffering is pretty clear. >we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. Similarly, we don’t value adult humans based on their intelligence. I think when forced into a decision, humans and societies will make distinctions along these lines. e.g. saving the mother or child during birth or famine, Prioritizing scientists or even sacrificing soldiers during wartime.
- adriand 2y ago
  > If you have much experience with cows and chickens, I think the difference in capacity for suffering is pretty clear. I’m not saying there is no difference - they are different species so we wouldn’t expect them to have an identical experience of pain and deprivation - but rather that the difference is not easily quantifiable. We are not able to access the interior lives of these animals. And in practice, I suspect many people would be as reluctant to rip the wing off a live chicken as the ear from a cow, while showing few misgivings about squashing an ant. That is to say, in practice most people are likely to behave as if the moral stances toward cows and chickens are roughly equivalent. In terms of being forced into decisions to value one human life over another, that doesn’t change the fact that morally and ethically we value human lives equally. We don’t extrapolate from emergencies to posit that one mom = three children. In any case, what bearing does this have on the problem at hand? If one cow’s life is morally equivalent to a non-singular number of chickens, how many chickens are we choosing, and why?
  - depressedpanda 2y ago
    > that doesn’t change the fact that morally and ethically we value human lives equally. Do we? I can think of many counter examples, and I'm sure you can as well. How is this a fact?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    >In terms of being forced into decisions to value one human life over another, that doesn’t change the fact that morally and ethically we value human lives equally. Doesn't it? There are stated valuations and then revealed valuations on life. When asking what people really think and feel, I think it is relevant to look at how they act when their behavior is contingent. Anyone can make arbitrary claims when they are not tested. Anyways, I agree that this all a tangent from the main point. >That is to say, in practice most people are likely to behave as if the moral stances toward cows and chickens are roughly equivalent. This is where I think we disagree. I think most people would have a pretty difference emotional and psychological experience killing a cow or chicken. This ties back to the concept of claimed belief vs revealed beliefs.
antisthenes 2y ago
> For instance, we don’t value the life of a small child less than the life of a grown adult, even though the child is smaller and less “intelligent” than the adult. It's an interesting example, because we actually kind of do. If I'm not mistaken, in case of difficult pregnancies, saving the mother is favored compared to saving the child/fetus. When it comes to valuing life in general, things are going to get muddy no matter how you look at it. Valuing females over males? Already happening. Children over adults? Sometimes. Healthy over disabled? Occasionally. And that's just between different "categories" of people.

1234554321a 2y ago

One cow costs $2500, one chicken costs $10. So one cow life is worth approximately 250 chicken lives. Q.E.D.