7 ms·

Uncomfortable truth: How close is "positivity culture" to delusion and denial?

89 points by jseliger 2y ago

ecmascript 2y ago
Damn, I have a hard time reading articles like this since it feeds into my health anxiety I have developed over the years after having many issues with my bowels. I have several issues due to this, reflux being one and I am afraid of getting a diagnosis like this man. Somehow, by reading about it, I can catch myself almost convincing me that I must have something else badly going on even if it is just the same old problems that I have had ever since the symtoms first started appearing. I sincerely hope that he survives his disease and that researches can develop vaccines against cancer.
- borbulon 2y ago
  They’re already doing clinical trials on cancer vaccines in many countries. https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/may/31/what-are-cancer-vaccines-and-have-scientists-finally-found-a-cure https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/may/31/what...
roenxi 2y ago
One of the weird things I've come to appreciate about death is it is actually a fairly communal activity in a philosophical sense. We all go through it, vanishingly few people like it and we all approach it with similar prospects of surviving for 150 years (nil, none, nothing, zip, zilch). I don't think these concepts of "positivity culture" and "denial" are really on the same spectrum. Any and every culture can devolve into delusion - in some fairly practical sense the default state of every culture is delusion (riddle me any culture that doesn't boil down to doing what "we do what we do because we can" at its logical root). We're all dying, some faster some slower, and it is possible to deal with death productively at any speed in most cultures. The issue is more that people honestly don't know how to deal with bad situations and for obvious reasons don't have personal experience with being terminally ill to fall back on to generate instinctive empathy. It transcends the cultural aspects, I expect you can go anywhere and people will be uncomfortable with pain, sickness and suffering. One of the major things that unites humans is they'd much rather that trio of feelings stayed well away from them and this leads to some fairly harsh treatment of the people who are not doing well. There are 2 approaches that I'm aware of - ignore death or turn to religion (I personally recommend Buddhism). Beyond that and symptom mitigation there isn't a lot that can be done although loosening up the regulations on the medical industry would probably help make life a little more bearable. I can imaging sitting in the medical system and watching it crush the life out of someone through economic inefficiency would be its own journey through hell. > You lie there for a while and dwell on the fact that, barring technological innovation like the Singularity, you’re going to bite it one day. The singularity won't save anyone. The maths of "forever" is unforgiving.
- Rhapso 2y ago
  I'm not afraid of dying, I'm honestly planning on intentional death if specific conditions are met, (dementia or "locked in"). I have DNR on my medical necklace next to my conditions because if they bother to slow down enough to check, im probably in a situation where that fate is worse than death. I am terrified of not finishing my todo list. I have things i want to make and changes to effect on the universe before i am ok with leaving it. I take a very utilitarian and brutal view of the future, and inevitable fates don't merit my fear, only my planning. However, I don't think the world would be better should my point of view be universal. I evangelize it only to those I think could benefit.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    I am more terrified of getting old. I don't have much on my to-do list and every year feels like I get weaker and more things become impossible forever I guess dying is just the final form of that
    - Rhapso 2y ago
      I have multiple medical issues that all have the effect of "you will go downhill fast in your 60s". I'm actually optimizing my health choices for QoL now over long term survival. Lots of more intense medications have side effects that get felt at point (high dosage Prednisone makes you go blind early, my most likely flavor of chemo makes you go deaf similarly) Decide now on what QoL isn't acceptable to you and plan accordingly. The idea you have to wait around forever to die is a strong cultural belief, but you get to pick how you live your life. That includes how and when it ends.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    > I am terrified of not finishing my todo list. This is one of the main fears of death.
- 2y ago
Rhapso 2y ago
edit: the assorted "you are misinterpreting them they just mean hello" responses are fundamentally missing the point of this comment. This is an implicit part of the "positivity culture" being discussed here. We have an entire ritual where you have to lie about things being fine. One thing i hate about our culture right now is the casual "How are you doing?" in service jobs. "Well, this week i found out i have testicular cancer and my doctor can't seem to get insurance approval for my Crohn's medication" are the things top in my mind. They are just being friendly in the superficial way. Having talked with folks, they really do mean it and they care, but they are also entirely unequipped for the real answers. The truth would offer me no satisfaction but the cruel catharsis of sharing my pain and they would only be hurt for it. Lying like this is really hard for me, these people don't deserve infantalized lies, so i have settled on "Horrible, but I'm having fun anyway!" with what is probably a manic smile, it reduces the damage to "mildly unsettled". Its ok to admit that your role in somebody's life is ephemeral and to act like it. "Good luck" or "I hope you have a good day" go so much further than the superficial simulation of intimacy and connection of asking how somebody's life is going while not expecting a real answer.
- elteto 2y ago
  It’s a cultural custom, most likely you are talking about North America. Other places might not have the same custom but will have others that may seem odd or fake to us. If I’m not having a particularly good time I just respond “I’m alright” and people take the cue. We shouldn’t sweat it too much.
  - Rhapso 2y ago
    Its hard for me, maybe too much of the 'tism to be able to not take people literally. All of the people i have actually talked to about it don't actually feel like it is "just a custom", they aren't operating at that level of abstraction. They think they mean it, or at least lie about it afterwards. It seems fundamental dismissive to their intent to blatantly lie. I suspect i would have similar issues in other places as you describe them.
    - 2y ago
grape_surgeon 2y ago
Line will always be different. There's healthy and realistic worrying where it motivates you to think and act if your situation is improvable, and there's the type of worrying where it's just wallowing and it just makes your situation worse. But overall I think it's better to lean positive, in a similar sense to how overconfident people tend to be more successful.
smeej 2y ago
It was scary to me how fast even my doctor wanted to medicate my grief to put it behind me. I was seeing her six weeks after my sister and nephew had died, only two weeks after I had returned from their hometown 1500 miles away where I had spent a month trying to help my parents not absolutely collapse. I was having trouble working full-time, and a friend had told me a diagnosis of "adjustment disorder non-specified" was basically code for "situational grief" and should be able to get me some FMLA flexibility for a couple months until I could handle full-time reliably again. I told the doc I thought the grief I was feeling only six weeks after a sudden and devastating loss was entirely appropriate, and that suppressing it seemed like it would make things worse, not better, but I'd let her know if things changed. When it had been a year and I was still struggling to function (granted that year had been full of other awful things), I finally did ask for help with an antidepressant, which did provide the boost I needed to start exercising agency in my life again, so it's not like it was altogether the wrong suggestion. It was just much, much too early. I found that the real friends in that situation were the ones who didn't need me to be someone else or somewhere else (emotionally) to love me.
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  It's a tough call. I agree with so much of what you're saying. That grief is devastating and appropriate - you can't love somebody with your whole heart without also grieving them with your whole heart. What I've never been able to figure out for myself is if antidepressants and their ilk are "suppressing" the grief. Or are they more like a cast that helps a broken bone to heal? I just honestly don't know. Like you I've decided to largely avoid them and fight through on my own. I never know if I'm making the best choice. I'm sorry for your loss and I'm glad things sound like they're heading in a better direction.
  - smeej 2y ago
    This felt like it was so soon nobody had even had time to set the bone yet. I think I would have appreciated it more if she had just put more context around it, like, "This is a really big thing you're going through. It's going to take a lot out of you, and it's going to take a lot of time. There's a lot I can't do, as your doctor, like bring them back. Some things just take time. But also sometimes antidepressants can help, whether at this stage of the journey or later on, and if that's an option you'd like to consider at some point, know I'll be available for that conversation." Maybe she was just inexperienced with grief. I don't know. It was just way too soon.
b3ing 2y ago
The current trend for quite some time has been positively in every thing. Prosperity churches, only talk to people that are positive (let’s face it real friends are there when things go bad), … etc There is a good book about this- Bright-Sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  Eh, a counter argument to the book also is that, it makes the US what it is. I haven't read that book but I have travelled and worked extensively in countries like Canada and UK and let me tell you - first hand, I have seen just the sheer increase in productivity in the US and the hopeful nature it has. Compare that to Canada whose slogan is "We have tried nothing but are all out of ideas.". So the positive thinking and forward and upward mindset that is present in most American large cities is palpable and contagious. It makes things happen and keeps stagnancy at bay.
nomoreusernames 2y ago
[dead]
lapcat 2y ago
I'm reminded of a tweet by Elon Musk, which struck me as the ultimate in explicit, unapologetic reality denial: "Better to be optimistic and wrong, than pessimistic and right!" https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1633208268238757888 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1633208268238757888
- boxed 2y ago
  You have clearly misunderstood the concept. It's not reality denial in that case, it's a call to try things. Just sitting around all doom and gloom will create exactly zero new science and technology. You have to try shit, even if the odds are bad.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    > You have clearly misunderstood the concept. "clearly" > It's not reality denial in that case, it's a call to try things. But he didn't just say "try things, even if the odds are bad". That would be unremarkable, though also bad advice in general, like a lottery winner telling everyone to buy lottery tickets. I feel that you're in denial of the reality of what he said, which explicitly mentions being right or wrong, not just trying things. I would say that it's better to know the truth in any case, whether the truth happens to be pleasant or unpleasant.
    - boxed 2y ago
      He started a car company when everyone said it was impossible. He started a rocket company when everyone said it was super hard. He made that rocket company land the first stages, when everyone thought it was impossible. He's an ass, but you can't argue with the results. Twisting some of his words out of context might feel good because you can bash on the outgroup, but it also makes you look silly and makes your group (MY GROUP!) look bad. Please stop.
      - lapcat 2y ago
        > He's an ass, but you can't argue with the results. I wasn't. None of your reply is even relevant to mine. I'm just opposed to the idea pushed by the "positivity cult" that one's personal attitude is more important than the truth, and it's better to be wrong than right if wrongness comes with optimism. I actually suspect that Musk is not consistent in his stated views, and he doesn't allow his subordinate engineers to be consistently wrong but overly optimistic. At least I hope not. You seem to want to talk about his accomplishments. But wouldn't that make him optimistic and right? The tweet, on the other hand, is talking about being optimistic and wrong. You have clearly misunderstood the concept... Perhaps you're under the misapprehension that what he does outside of social media justifies the stuff he says on social media? That isn't true. Incidentally, "everyone said"/"everyone thought" is almost always an exaggeration/falsehood.
mihaaly 2y ago
Your writing is yet another confirmation for my tentative (yet ca. 20 years old) life phylosophy about that we should seek balance in everything (means: most of things, because the other one is about no absolutes) and the extremes are the devil. Extreme happyness and goodness too. That's actually a blatant - or clulessly idiotic - lie, not good or happy. Ironically your writing about having less positivity made me feel affirming and good. Sounds like my kind of thinking.
- s3tt3mbr1n1 2y ago
  Sounds like the Golden Mean, or Aristotle's moral virtues. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)#Aristotle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)#Arist...
donatj 2y ago
When my dad was in the hospital after having bypass surgery, a lady came around doing aromatherapy. I know in my heart it's a bunch of crap, and I know 100% my dad would think so in better health, but in this beat down state he seemed to take some sort of solace in it so I didn't say a word. All this is to say, sometimes you just need let people have their placebos, because it can be more cruel not to.
- codemonkey-zeta 2y ago
  Not only that, but the placebo effect is one of the most reliably powerful effects in all of medicine. It's not just a form of solace, it is often a critical part of recovery. In many cases it is more important to receive an "effective" placebo than to receive actual medical intervention.
- recursivedoubts 2y ago
  the placebo effect is still an effect
  - aoeusnth1 2y ago
    The placebo effect is mostly regression to the mean.
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      This really, really isn't true. Like, basically all clinical trials with a placebo arm and a no treatment arm (particularly for pain and depression) show a pretty significant difference between the two arms, suggesting that something's going on there. There was that famous meta-analysis from 2001 that showed no significant effects, but that averaged over a _lot_ of trials where we wouldn't expect much of an effect (cancer, particularly). When you look at trials that could plausibly be placebo-susceptible you do find an effect. Can you explain why you think it's mostly regression to the mean?
      - aoeusnth1 2y ago
nataliste 2y ago
Talking through the inevitability of death is a fixture in philosophy and really does make it easier to bear. One of the most popular works through the middle ages was Boethius's On the Consolation of Philosophy, a treatise on not lamenting death through philosophy. Of course, the author's point about speaking about consolation is often for the speaker, and Boethius was no different. Formerly one of the most powerful men in Rome, he wrote the work while imprisoned by the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great and facing imminent execution on sham charges of treason. Sure, it's not a terminal illness, but he was rugpulled to death in a very similar manner. It's basically basically Martis cum Moriar and I highly recommend it for anyone concerned about death, dying, the inevitability of decay.
JohnBooty 2y ago
The most powerful thing is a negative attitude. It's pretty easy to ensure that everybody around you is miserable and that nearly all of your outcomes are terrible. However, the opposite is unfortunately not possible: you can't make everything great just by being positive. Therefore, it is best to be pragmatically positive. Recognize that positivity gives you the best chance to succeed... while recognizing its limitations. When you cross that line, that's when it becomes "delusion and denial."
bitwize 2y ago
I've found there's a dark connection between the positive thinking movement and multilevel marketing. Virtually all of the "teachers" mentioned in The Secret, for instance, serve on the MLM motivational-speaking circuit, and those who don't have side scams of their own. Motivational speaking as a thing fizzled out except among MLMs, as people realized that the only honest motivational speaker was Chris Farley's character Matt Foley, and the motivational message did not result in the expected productivity gains among legit companies. But for keeping suckers in a pyramid scheme they are effective, because those people have already proven willing to delude themselves into believing in something that won't materialize.

89 points by jseliger 2y ago

Damn, I have a hard time reading articles like this since it feeds into my health anxiety I have developed over the years after having many issues with my bowels. I have several issues due to this, reflux being one and I am afraid of getting a diagnosis like this man. Somehow, by reading about it, I can catch myself almost convincing me that I must have something else badly going on even if it is just the same old problems that I have had ever since the symtoms first started appearing. I sincerely hope that he survives his disease and that researches can develop vaccines against cancer.

borbulon 2y ago
They’re already doing clinical trials on cancer vaccines in many countries. https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/may/31/what-are-cancer-vaccines-and-have-scientists-finally-found-a-cure https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/may/31/what...

roenxi 2y ago

One of the weird things I've come to appreciate about death is it is actually a fairly communal activity in a philosophical sense. We all go through it, vanishingly few people like it and we all approach it with similar prospects of surviving for 150 years (nil, none, nothing, zip, zilch). I don't think these concepts of "positivity culture" and "denial" are really on the same spectrum. Any and every culture can devolve into delusion - in some fairly practical sense the default state of every culture is delusion (riddle me any culture that doesn't boil down to doing what "we do what we do because we can" at its logical root). We're all dying, some faster some slower, and it is possible to deal with death productively at any speed in most cultures. The issue is more that people honestly don't know how to deal with bad situations and for obvious reasons don't have personal experience with being terminally ill to fall back on to generate instinctive empathy. It transcends the cultural aspects, I expect you can go anywhere and people will be uncomfortable with pain, sickness and suffering. One of the major things that unites humans is they'd much rather that trio of feelings stayed well away from them and this leads to some fairly harsh treatment of the people who are not doing well. There are 2 approaches that I'm aware of - ignore death or turn to religion (I personally recommend Buddhism). Beyond that and symptom mitigation there isn't a lot that can be done although loosening up the regulations on the medical industry would probably help make life a little more bearable. I can imaging sitting in the medical system and watching it crush the life out of someone through economic inefficiency would be its own journey through hell. > You lie there for a while and dwell on the fact that, barring technological innovation like the Singularity, you’re going to bite it one day. The singularity won't save anyone. The maths of "forever" is unforgiving.

Rhapso 2y ago
I'm not afraid of dying, I'm honestly planning on intentional death if specific conditions are met, (dementia or "locked in"). I have DNR on my medical necklace next to my conditions because if they bother to slow down enough to check, im probably in a situation where that fate is worse than death. I am terrified of not finishing my todo list. I have things i want to make and changes to effect on the universe before i am ok with leaving it. I take a very utilitarian and brutal view of the future, and inevitable fates don't merit my fear, only my planning. However, I don't think the world would be better should my point of view be universal. I evangelize it only to those I think could benefit.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  I am more terrified of getting old. I don't have much on my to-do list and every year feels like I get weaker and more things become impossible forever I guess dying is just the final form of that
  - Rhapso 2y ago
    I have multiple medical issues that all have the effect of "you will go downhill fast in your 60s". I'm actually optimizing my health choices for QoL now over long term survival. Lots of more intense medications have side effects that get felt at point (high dosage Prednisone makes you go blind early, my most likely flavor of chemo makes you go deaf similarly) Decide now on what QoL isn't acceptable to you and plan accordingly. The idea you have to wait around forever to die is a strong cultural belief, but you get to pick how you live your life. That includes how and when it ends.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  > I am terrified of not finishing my todo list. This is one of the main fears of death.
2y ago

Rhapso 2y ago

edit: the assorted "you are misinterpreting them they just mean hello" responses are fundamentally missing the point of this comment. This is an implicit part of the "positivity culture" being discussed here. We have an entire ritual where you have to lie about things being fine. One thing i hate about our culture right now is the casual "How are you doing?" in service jobs. "Well, this week i found out i have testicular cancer and my doctor can't seem to get insurance approval for my Crohn's medication" are the things top in my mind. They are just being friendly in the superficial way. Having talked with folks, they really do mean it and they care, but they are also entirely unequipped for the real answers. The truth would offer me no satisfaction but the cruel catharsis of sharing my pain and they would only be hurt for it. Lying like this is really hard for me, these people don't deserve infantalized lies, so i have settled on "Horrible, but I'm having fun anyway!" with what is probably a manic smile, it reduces the damage to "mildly unsettled". Its ok to admit that your role in somebody's life is ephemeral and to act like it. "Good luck" or "I hope you have a good day" go so much further than the superficial simulation of intimacy and connection of asking how somebody's life is going while not expecting a real answer.

elteto 2y ago
It’s a cultural custom, most likely you are talking about North America. Other places might not have the same custom but will have others that may seem odd or fake to us. If I’m not having a particularly good time I just respond “I’m alright” and people take the cue. We shouldn’t sweat it too much.
- Rhapso 2y ago
  Its hard for me, maybe too much of the 'tism to be able to not take people literally. All of the people i have actually talked to about it don't actually feel like it is "just a custom", they aren't operating at that level of abstraction. They think they mean it, or at least lie about it afterwards. It seems fundamental dismissive to their intent to blatantly lie. I suspect i would have similar issues in other places as you describe them.
  - 2y ago

grape_surgeon 2y ago

Line will always be different. There's healthy and realistic worrying where it motivates you to think and act if your situation is improvable, and there's the type of worrying where it's just wallowing and it just makes your situation worse. But overall I think it's better to lean positive, in a similar sense to how overconfident people tend to be more successful.

smeej 2y ago

It was scary to me how fast even my doctor wanted to medicate my grief to put it behind me. I was seeing her six weeks after my sister and nephew had died, only two weeks after I had returned from their hometown 1500 miles away where I had spent a month trying to help my parents not absolutely collapse. I was having trouble working full-time, and a friend had told me a diagnosis of "adjustment disorder non-specified" was basically code for "situational grief" and should be able to get me some FMLA flexibility for a couple months until I could handle full-time reliably again. I told the doc I thought the grief I was feeling only six weeks after a sudden and devastating loss was entirely appropriate, and that suppressing it seemed like it would make things worse, not better, but I'd let her know if things changed. When it had been a year and I was still struggling to function (granted that year had been full of other awful things), I finally did ask for help with an antidepressant, which did provide the boost I needed to start exercising agency in my life again, so it's not like it was altogether the wrong suggestion. It was just much, much too early. I found that the real friends in that situation were the ones who didn't need me to be someone else or somewhere else (emotionally) to love me.

JohnBooty 2y ago
It's a tough call. I agree with so much of what you're saying. That grief is devastating and appropriate - you can't love somebody with your whole heart without also grieving them with your whole heart. What I've never been able to figure out for myself is if antidepressants and their ilk are "suppressing" the grief. Or are they more like a cast that helps a broken bone to heal? I just honestly don't know. Like you I've decided to largely avoid them and fight through on my own. I never know if I'm making the best choice. I'm sorry for your loss and I'm glad things sound like they're heading in a better direction.
- smeej 2y ago
  This felt like it was so soon nobody had even had time to set the bone yet. I think I would have appreciated it more if she had just put more context around it, like, "This is a really big thing you're going through. It's going to take a lot out of you, and it's going to take a lot of time. There's a lot I can't do, as your doctor, like bring them back. Some things just take time. But also sometimes antidepressants can help, whether at this stage of the journey or later on, and if that's an option you'd like to consider at some point, know I'll be available for that conversation." Maybe she was just inexperienced with grief. I don't know. It was just way too soon.

b3ing 2y ago

The current trend for quite some time has been positively in every thing. Prosperity churches, only talk to people that are positive (let’s face it real friends are there when things go bad), … etc There is a good book about this- Bright-Sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
Eh, a counter argument to the book also is that, it makes the US what it is. I haven't read that book but I have travelled and worked extensively in countries like Canada and UK and let me tell you - first hand, I have seen just the sheer increase in productivity in the US and the hopeful nature it has. Compare that to Canada whose slogan is "We have tried nothing but are all out of ideas.". So the positive thinking and forward and upward mindset that is present in most American large cities is palpable and contagious. It makes things happen and keeps stagnancy at bay.

nomoreusernames 2y ago

[dead]

lapcat 2y ago

I'm reminded of a tweet by Elon Musk, which struck me as the ultimate in explicit, unapologetic reality denial: "Better to be optimistic and wrong, than pessimistic and right!" https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1633208268238757888 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1633208268238757888

boxed 2y ago
You have clearly misunderstood the concept. It's not reality denial in that case, it's a call to try things. Just sitting around all doom and gloom will create exactly zero new science and technology. You have to try shit, even if the odds are bad.
- lapcat 2y ago
  > You have clearly misunderstood the concept. "clearly" > It's not reality denial in that case, it's a call to try things. But he didn't just say "try things, even if the odds are bad". That would be unremarkable, though also bad advice in general, like a lottery winner telling everyone to buy lottery tickets. I feel that you're in denial of the reality of what he said, which explicitly mentions being right or wrong, not just trying things. I would say that it's better to know the truth in any case, whether the truth happens to be pleasant or unpleasant.
  - boxed 2y ago
    He started a car company when everyone said it was impossible. He started a rocket company when everyone said it was super hard. He made that rocket company land the first stages, when everyone thought it was impossible. He's an ass, but you can't argue with the results. Twisting some of his words out of context might feel good because you can bash on the outgroup, but it also makes you look silly and makes your group (MY GROUP!) look bad. Please stop.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      > He's an ass, but you can't argue with the results. I wasn't. None of your reply is even relevant to mine. I'm just opposed to the idea pushed by the "positivity cult" that one's personal attitude is more important than the truth, and it's better to be wrong than right if wrongness comes with optimism. I actually suspect that Musk is not consistent in his stated views, and he doesn't allow his subordinate engineers to be consistently wrong but overly optimistic. At least I hope not. You seem to want to talk about his accomplishments. But wouldn't that make him optimistic and right? The tweet, on the other hand, is talking about being optimistic and wrong. You have clearly misunderstood the concept... Perhaps you're under the misapprehension that what he does outside of social media justifies the stuff he says on social media? That isn't true. Incidentally, "everyone said"/"everyone thought" is almost always an exaggeration/falsehood.

mihaaly 2y ago

Your writing is yet another confirmation for my tentative (yet ca. 20 years old) life phylosophy about that we should seek balance in everything (means: most of things, because the other one is about no absolutes) and the extremes are the devil. Extreme happyness and goodness too. That's actually a blatant - or clulessly idiotic - lie, not good or happy. Ironically your writing about having less positivity made me feel affirming and good. Sounds like my kind of thinking.

s3tt3mbr1n1 2y ago
Sounds like the Golden Mean, or Aristotle's moral virtues. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)#Aristotle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)#Arist...

donatj 2y ago

When my dad was in the hospital after having bypass surgery, a lady came around doing aromatherapy. I know in my heart it's a bunch of crap, and I know 100% my dad would think so in better health, but in this beat down state he seemed to take some sort of solace in it so I didn't say a word. All this is to say, sometimes you just need let people have their placebos, because it can be more cruel not to.

codemonkey-zeta 2y ago
Not only that, but the placebo effect is one of the most reliably powerful effects in all of medicine. It's not just a form of solace, it is often a critical part of recovery. In many cases it is more important to receive an "effective" placebo than to receive actual medical intervention.
recursivedoubts 2y ago
the placebo effect is still an effect
- aoeusnth1 2y ago
  The placebo effect is mostly regression to the mean.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    This really, really isn't true. Like, basically all clinical trials with a placebo arm and a no treatment arm (particularly for pain and depression) show a pretty significant difference between the two arms, suggesting that something's going on there. There was that famous meta-analysis from 2001 that showed no significant effects, but that averaged over a _lot_ of trials where we wouldn't expect much of an effect (cancer, particularly). When you look at trials that could plausibly be placebo-susceptible you do find an effect. Can you explain why you think it's mostly regression to the mean?
    - aoeusnth1 2y ago

nataliste 2y ago

Talking through the inevitability of death is a fixture in philosophy and really does make it easier to bear. One of the most popular works through the middle ages was Boethius's On the Consolation of Philosophy, a treatise on not lamenting death through philosophy. Of course, the author's point about speaking about consolation is often for the speaker, and Boethius was no different. Formerly one of the most powerful men in Rome, he wrote the work while imprisoned by the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great and facing imminent execution on sham charges of treason. Sure, it's not a terminal illness, but he was rugpulled to death in a very similar manner. It's basically basically Martis cum Moriar and I highly recommend it for anyone concerned about death, dying, the inevitability of decay.

JohnBooty 2y ago

The most powerful thing is a negative attitude. It's pretty easy to ensure that everybody around you is miserable and that nearly all of your outcomes are terrible. However, the opposite is unfortunately not possible: you can't make everything great just by being positive. Therefore, it is best to be pragmatically positive. Recognize that positivity gives you the best chance to succeed... while recognizing its limitations. When you cross that line, that's when it becomes "delusion and denial."

bitwize 2y ago

I've found there's a dark connection between the positive thinking movement and multilevel marketing. Virtually all of the "teachers" mentioned in The Secret, for instance, serve on the MLM motivational-speaking circuit, and those who don't have side scams of their own. Motivational speaking as a thing fizzled out except among MLMs, as people realized that the only honest motivational speaker was Chris Farley's character Matt Foley, and the motivational message did not result in the expected productivity gains among legit companies. But for keeping suckers in a pyramid scheme they are effective, because those people have already proven willing to delude themselves into believing in something that won't materialize.