15 ms·

The EU regulates that by 2027, all phones be equipped with replaceable batteries

112 points by retskrad 2y ago

falcor84 2y ago
If true, can someone please find a better source for this?
- pdw 2y ago
  It was decided last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510
techpression 2y ago
Replaceable or user replaceable, quite the important distinction. Don’t know of any phone you can’t replace the battery, quite hard to do yourself though on a lot of them.
- rpdillon 2y ago
  > The regulation provides that by 2027 portable batteries incorporated into appliances should be removable and replaceable by the end-user, leaving sufficient time for operators to adapt the design of their products to this requirement. This is an important provision for consumers. Light means of transport batteries will need to be replaceable by an independent professional. From https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023...
  - techpression 2y ago
    Thanks for the link. This will make most of what’s being sold today incompatible with the legislation, it’s going to be interesting to see how this works out for things that are not phones, probably back to AA batteries and finicky plastic lids.
- gsich 2y ago
  Screwdrivers are allowed, there is no need for it to be doable at gunpoint.
  - capitainenemo 2y ago
    Although, I've had my xcover6 pro for 2 years now. it's been in water several times, dropped many times (I think the back bursting off does indeed help dissipate energy). The screen is still fine (well, some minor scratches that I think are due to putting it in same pocket as my keys far too often), and I've not had any issues. As far as I can tell the battery is sealed off from everything that is important, and there is a rubber gasket around the battery as well. I have a second backup battery for it, and I can rapidly swap between the 2 in a few seconds. The back is a little plain and ugly, but I don't see why it couldn't be snazzed up to apple standards (metal shell or whatever) and still be a quick replacement.
crznp 2y ago
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023... User replaceable batteries by 2027 is old news. The new news seems to be how Apple plans to accomplish it.
thebruce87m 2y ago
I hope apple has a way of detecting a genuine battery and alerting if it isn’t. I buy second hand and only want OEM parts.
- microtherion 2y ago
  That seems like a surefire way to attract the next EU regulation.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    Why? Letting people know if a part is genuine empowers the user. I can’t think of a single reason that giving them more information is a bad thing. The last time they didn’t let people know about battery information they were fined heavily, even though it prevented unwanted behaviour (reboots). If a third party battery can’t supply peak current demand, they will have to alert.
    - PontifexMinimus 2y ago
      > Letting people know if a part is genuine empowers the user. And putting DRM on hardware to prevent people using third-party peripherals disempowers the user, and should be illegal.
      - thebruce87m 2y ago
        > And putting DRM on hardware to prevent people using third-party peripherals disempowers the user, and should be illegal. This is not relevant to this discussion.
        g15jv2dp 2y ago
        Who are you to decide that? I find the concern very relevant to the discussion.
        2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
actinium226 2y ago
Cool, next they'll try regulating IP68 and then they'll have some fun conversation about how regulations only go so far to protect consumers.
- fsh 2y ago
  There is no conflict between IP68 and user-replacable batteries. Quartz watches have achieved this many decades ago.
- ojagodzinski 2y ago
  every Samsung Galaxy XCover has IP68 and user replaceable battery.
- jampekka 2y ago
  Excellent FUD.
can16358p 2y ago
I hope this doesn't affect water-resistance, which I (and everyone I know) care much more about a hypothetical replacable battery that we won't probably ever need in the lifetime of the device.
- guilamu 2y ago
  Most High end devices have 7 years of update now (Samsung, Google pixels). No current Gen battery can last that long.
  - nakedrobot2 2y ago
    because the manufacturers are not required to make them last that long. if they were required to, they would alter the chemistry / capacity of the battery instantly and this would be solved.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Is there a lithium ion battery chemistry that lasts 8 years after being manufactured and ~3,000 discharge cycles without significant (10+%) degradation?
      - johndough 2y ago
        LiFePO4 can (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abae37/pdf https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abae37/... Figure 1), although I would still like to be able to change my battery.
- magicalhippo 2y ago
  My Samsung S5 was water resistant (IP67) and had user-replaceable batteries. They solved it by having an "O-ring" gasket around the periphery of the case[1]. [1]: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-galaxy-s5-smartphone,3908-3.html https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-galaxy-s5-smart...
- capitainenemo 2y ago
buran77 2y ago
The submission title has almost nothing to do with the meat of the announcement. This unfortunately is buried in a link from a tweet, quoted by another tweet, about 2-3x past the threshold of effort most people put into reading to get to the point. This is a manufacturer of stainless steel battery cases announcing Apple will use them for the battery in the iPhone 16 [0]. > Sunway is a major supplier of stainless steel battery cases. > Apple uses the stainless steel battery case for the first time as a thermal solution > Looking forward to 2025, if all 2H25 new iPhones adopt this new design [0] https://medium.com/@mingchikuo/%E4%BF%A1%E7%B6%AD%E9%80%9A%E4%BF%A1%E7%82%BA%E6%96%B0%E6%AC%BEiphone-16-pro-max%E7%9A%84%E9%9B%BB%E6%B1%A0%E8%83%BD%E9%87%8F%E5%AF%86%E5%BA%A6%E5%8D%87%E7%B4%9A%E7%9A%84%E4%B8%BB%E8%A6%81%E5%8F%97%E7%9B%8A%E8%80%85-sunway-is-a-major-beneficiary-of-the-new-iphone-16-pro-9df9c5cd3913 https://medium.com/@mingchikuo/%E4%BF%A1%E7%B6%AD%E9%80%9A%E...
- g15jv2dp 2y ago
  I don't care about the material of batteries in apple's phones. I care much more about user-replaceable batteries. I don't think I'm alone in that and I don't see why the iphone 16 battery should somehow be the "meat" of the announcement.
  - buran77 2y ago
    > I care much more about user-replaceable batteries Then I strongly encourage a trip down memory lane to one year ago when this was actually decided and discussed [0]. Lots of good info there on exactly this topic. > I don't see why the iphone 16 battery should somehow be the "meat" of the announcement. Because behind the misleading title of the submission that "The EU regulates [...]" is really content about the material Apple will use. I already mentioned this and quoted that content to avoid too much of the discussion being besides the point and reduce the threshold of effort needed to get the info down to approximately 0. Still too high I take it? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510
MrTongWan 2y ago
[dead]
constantcrying 2y ago
Batteries should be replaceable, but requiring them to be user replaceable, essentially banning glue seals, is ridiculous. Glueing phones shut is a very effective way to guarantee longevity and make it safe from damage from water, sand and dust. Manufacturers should be required to provide replacement batteries and replacement seals, which allow any remotely competent repair shop to replace the battery, I there is a need for it. Edit: If you are curious, this is one of the easier ways to get down voted on HN. This isn't the first time this topic came up, but as of now nobody has really tried to argue against this, which I always thought kind of disappointing.
- jfengel 2y ago
  I agree that I don't particularly want my device to have to optimize its design for a once-every-two-years operation. I'm just fine with taking my phone to an expert for that, and having it optimized for size/weight/power/whatever for the other 729 days out of 730. I know that people have been replacing their phones rather than getting a new battery, and that is a lot of waste. I hope that the new rule will shift people away from that. But for me I've never had a problem letting someone else do it for me.
- gausswho 2y ago
  Say a trip to the repair shop comes with an inconvenience and price margin that discourages 80% of battery replacements of occurring. This throws phones in landfills before they need to be there. You could argue that many more phones die this way than ones that do from exposure to water or fine sand. If so, a corollary could argue that the onus should be on those who need such features to rely on the aftermarket for them, for the sake of both the consumer and the health of the planet.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    I don't want every single phone to be worse just because people are too lazy to go to a repair shop. Inevitably not glueing phones shut will lead to an increase in waste as other mechanisms will fail more often.
  - 2y ago
severine 2y ago
What about laptops?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
shinryuu 2y ago
Would be real nice with replaceable batteries, hdd, and ram for laptops too!
- DocTomoe 2y ago
  Buy a laptop that has that feature. I prefer my slim devices. I've been hauling Thinkpads around for long enough.
  - Const-me 2y ago
    Here’s an example of a modern laptop with replaceable battery, disk and RAM: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-zbook-firefly-14-inch-g11-a-mobile-workstation-pc-wolf-pro-security-edition-p-a19g4ua-aba-1 https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-zbook-firefly-14-inch-g...
karmakaze 2y ago
I'm sensing that this may be too little or late. By 2027 our battery tech will probably have advanced that phones will be replaced sooner than their batteries deteriorate. To prevent e-waste we'll need more upgradable devices with user-exchangeable components beyond batteries. Still a move in the right direction.
- squidbeak 2y ago
  As a redundancy in case battery tech improvements turn out to be slower, it's a good change.
- kasabali 2y ago
  What makes you think the battery technology we've been using in consumer electronic devices for the past 20 years will improve suddenly and dramatically in next 3 years?
  - karmakaze 2y ago
    It's not only the batteries, but charging circuits are getting much smarter about increasing the longevity of batteries, we also have eco cores that limit current draw for common tasks. All tech is getting better. The only thing that's concerning is if there's an increase demand for power running ML on device.
DocTomoe 2y ago
No, it doesn't necessarily. And yes, IANAL. When you look at the regulation [1], you see several potential loopholes. Firstly, the regulation does not say an appliance MUST allow removal and replacement of batteries by end-users, but SHOULD allow it. The capability is not meant to allow for swapping batteries to increase user comfort (e.g. by replacing a dying one with a new one), but primarily to allow for disposal and recycling of the battery. This is likely to create new EU legislations that put more burdens on the end-user (e.g. having to remove and separately dispose of the battery instead of dropping the device off at a recycling center). Then, in paragraph 38, a battery is considered replaceable by the end-user if the end-user can replace it with generally and commercially available tools. A manufacturer could, for instance, make replacement dependant on a tool that they individually sell for an absurd amount of money, and would be in compliance with the regulation. In paragraph 39, the text shows again that there is no general requirement for a manufacturer to allow user-replacement in all cases. Some example given when this is not considered necessary are water-resistance, and safety concerns. A smartphone manufacturer could easily argue that the battery is too fragile to be handled by end-users and doing so risks lithium fires. These exceptions then are codified in Article 11, which uses 'shall', not 'must', and which gives us another reason when this does not apply - for devices which need to have power constantly, e.g. for the integrity of data collection. Which you could easily argue that smartphones fall under. In subpoint 4, it points out that the list of excepted devices can be extended whenever they so feel like - all it takes is a series of kids who start burning themselves while mishandling batteries, ideally on social media, and smartphones are explicitly exempt after the outcry. [1] https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT...
- orra 2y ago
  > And yes, IANAL. Politely, you're presumably not a lawyer of European law. > Then, in paragraph 38 [. . .] In paragraph 39 They're called Recitals, and I'm not sure why you're so focused on them. Recitals help clarify purpose but are not legally binding[1]. > These exceptions then are codified in Article 11, which uses 'shall', not 'must' This proves the opposite of the point you're making. Shall denotes an obligation[2]. > which gives us another reason when this does not apply - for devices which need to have power constantly, e.g. for the integrity of data collection. Which you could easily argue that smartphones fall under. Come on. That's not a good faith interpretation of the exception. [1] https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-009-6368?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default) https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-009-6368?transi... [2] https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/c45f5b70-2d0e-4da7-b181-b5fe3a16c4bb_en https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/c45f5b70-2d0e... paragraph 10.27
Findecanor 2y ago
The EU decided on this regulation about a year ago. [0] From my understanding, the most important point was to make it easier to recycle rare earth minerals in rechargeable batteries so as not to be as reliant on countries outside the EU (read: China) where they are mined. [0]. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023...
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Makes sense and it will also increase the longevity of phones. I welcome the change. It doesn't have to be as easy as it was with e.g. the Samsung S5 or the xcovers (which, by the way are still waterproof). But as far as i understand it a simple tool like a screwdriver can be used. It also means I won't have to mollycoddle my phone battery so much (limiting charge to 80% etc) because I can just charge it and get a fresh one after a year or 2-3.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  > From my understanding, the most important point was to make it easier to recycle rare earth minerals in rechargeable batteries... I guess because from a user point of view it doesn't make much sense: by the time the battery is dead, the phone is so outdated it serves no use anymore. And this comes as someone using old smartphones (still on their first battery).
  - pfg 2y ago
    I'm perfectly happy with the performance of my iPhone SE (2020), and it's still receiving software updates, but the battery is severely degraded. The same was true for my first-generation iPhone SE; I was able to get a cheap replacement back then due to Apple's battery replacement program related to batterygate. Access to cheap replacement batteries would definitely have an impact when deciding whether I should replace my phone or not. I believe Apple even mentioned the battery replacement program being a factor contributing to lower-than-expected sales a few years ago (sorry, can't find the source).
  - 2y ago
Animats 2y ago
By 2027, phones should be using solid-state batteries that will outlive the phone.
- TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
  It is more likely that by 2027 fairy tale about solid state batteries just around the corner will be still going strong.
dusted 2y ago
For that to have any actual positive effect, they need to also dictate some specification to be followed, so that you can actually re-use the batteries when they outlast the phones.. (broken phone, new phone and so on)
lencastre 2y ago
So iPhone19ish? I’m sure it will be touted as the greatest innovation,… the unapologetically battery replacement capable iPhone, the most advanced yet.
nickpp 2y ago
There are thousands trade offs going into each product. Demanding that a subset of these trade offs must include certain solutions in effect elevates those solutions' importance above all the other issues, past or future, encountered or unforeseen. That is simply dumb. It prevents improvements, innovation and future advances of said product while pandering to a current political base sensible to said issues. It is another way a country stagnates,
drzzhan 2y ago
This is such a great change. Most of the time my friend changing phone is because of the battery. The battery is dead, the phone is old, and replacing battery service is expensive, so they might as well buy a new one. Now with this, we will have another option to just replace the battery ourselve and move on (Well unless the manufacturers don't sell them)
M95D 2y ago
My 10y old phone sill has a lot of battery left. What I'm missing is a replaceable kernel!

112 points by retskrad 2y ago

falcor84 2y ago

If true, can someone please find a better source for this?

pdw 2y ago
It was decided last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510

techpression 2y ago

Replaceable or user replaceable, quite the important distinction. Don’t know of any phone you can’t replace the battery, quite hard to do yourself though on a lot of them.

rpdillon 2y ago
> The regulation provides that by 2027 portable batteries incorporated into appliances should be removable and replaceable by the end-user, leaving sufficient time for operators to adapt the design of their products to this requirement. This is an important provision for consumers. Light means of transport batteries will need to be replaceable by an independent professional. From https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023...
- techpression 2y ago
  Thanks for the link. This will make most of what’s being sold today incompatible with the legislation, it’s going to be interesting to see how this works out for things that are not phones, probably back to AA batteries and finicky plastic lids.
gsich 2y ago
Screwdrivers are allowed, there is no need for it to be doable at gunpoint.
- capitainenemo 2y ago
  Although, I've had my xcover6 pro for 2 years now. it's been in water several times, dropped many times (I think the back bursting off does indeed help dissipate energy). The screen is still fine (well, some minor scratches that I think are due to putting it in same pocket as my keys far too often), and I've not had any issues. As far as I can tell the battery is sealed off from everything that is important, and there is a rubber gasket around the battery as well. I have a second backup battery for it, and I can rapidly swap between the 2 in a few seconds. The back is a little plain and ugly, but I don't see why it couldn't be snazzed up to apple standards (metal shell or whatever) and still be a quick replacement.

crznp 2y ago

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023... User replaceable batteries by 2027 is old news. The new news seems to be how Apple plans to accomplish it.

thebruce87m 2y ago

I hope apple has a way of detecting a genuine battery and alerting if it isn’t. I buy second hand and only want OEM parts.

microtherion 2y ago
That seems like a surefire way to attract the next EU regulation.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  Why? Letting people know if a part is genuine empowers the user. I can’t think of a single reason that giving them more information is a bad thing. The last time they didn’t let people know about battery information they were fined heavily, even though it prevented unwanted behaviour (reboots). If a third party battery can’t supply peak current demand, they will have to alert.
  - PontifexMinimus 2y ago
    > Letting people know if a part is genuine empowers the user. And putting DRM on hardware to prevent people using third-party peripherals disempowers the user, and should be illegal.
    - thebruce87m 2y ago
      > And putting DRM on hardware to prevent people using third-party peripherals disempowers the user, and should be illegal. This is not relevant to this discussion.
      - g15jv2dp 2y ago
        Who are you to decide that? I find the concern very relevant to the discussion.
        2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

actinium226 2y ago

Cool, next they'll try regulating IP68 and then they'll have some fun conversation about how regulations only go so far to protect consumers.

fsh 2y ago
There is no conflict between IP68 and user-replacable batteries. Quartz watches have achieved this many decades ago.
ojagodzinski 2y ago
every Samsung Galaxy XCover has IP68 and user replaceable battery.
jampekka 2y ago
Excellent FUD.

can16358p 2y ago

I hope this doesn't affect water-resistance, which I (and everyone I know) care much more about a hypothetical replacable battery that we won't probably ever need in the lifetime of the device.

guilamu 2y ago
Most High end devices have 7 years of update now (Samsung, Google pixels). No current Gen battery can last that long.
- nakedrobot2 2y ago
  because the manufacturers are not required to make them last that long. if they were required to, they would alter the chemistry / capacity of the battery instantly and this would be solved.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Is there a lithium ion battery chemistry that lasts 8 years after being manufactured and ~3,000 discharge cycles without significant (10+%) degradation?
    - johndough 2y ago
      LiFePO4 can (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abae37/pdf https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abae37/... Figure 1), although I would still like to be able to change my battery.
magicalhippo 2y ago
My Samsung S5 was water resistant (IP67) and had user-replaceable batteries. They solved it by having an "O-ring" gasket around the periphery of the case[1]. [1]: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-galaxy-s5-smartphone,3908-3.html https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-galaxy-s5-smart...
capitainenemo 2y ago

buran77 2y ago

The submission title has almost nothing to do with the meat of the announcement. This unfortunately is buried in a link from a tweet, quoted by another tweet, about 2-3x past the threshold of effort most people put into reading to get to the point. This is a manufacturer of stainless steel battery cases announcing Apple will use them for the battery in the iPhone 16 [0]. > Sunway is a major supplier of stainless steel battery cases. > Apple uses the stainless steel battery case for the first time as a thermal solution > Looking forward to 2025, if all 2H25 new iPhones adopt this new design [0] https://medium.com/@mingchikuo/%E4%BF%A1%E7%B6%AD%E9%80%9A%E4%BF%A1%E7%82%BA%E6%96%B0%E6%AC%BEiphone-16-pro-max%E7%9A%84%E9%9B%BB%E6%B1%A0%E8%83%BD%E9%87%8F%E5%AF%86%E5%BA%A6%E5%8D%87%E7%B4%9A%E7%9A%84%E4%B8%BB%E8%A6%81%E5%8F%97%E7%9B%8A%E8%80%85-sunway-is-a-major-beneficiary-of-the-new-iphone-16-pro-9df9c5cd3913 https://medium.com/@mingchikuo/%E4%BF%A1%E7%B6%AD%E9%80%9A%E...

g15jv2dp 2y ago
I don't care about the material of batteries in apple's phones. I care much more about user-replaceable batteries. I don't think I'm alone in that and I don't see why the iphone 16 battery should somehow be the "meat" of the announcement.
- buran77 2y ago
  > I care much more about user-replaceable batteries Then I strongly encourage a trip down memory lane to one year ago when this was actually decided and discussed [0]. Lots of good info there on exactly this topic. > I don't see why the iphone 16 battery should somehow be the "meat" of the announcement. Because behind the misleading title of the submission that "The EU regulates [...]" is really content about the material Apple will use. I already mentioned this and quoted that content to avoid too much of the discussion being besides the point and reduce the threshold of effort needed to get the info down to approximately 0. Still too high I take it? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510

MrTongWan 2y ago

[dead]

constantcrying 2y ago

Batteries should be replaceable, but requiring them to be user replaceable, essentially banning glue seals, is ridiculous. Glueing phones shut is a very effective way to guarantee longevity and make it safe from damage from water, sand and dust. Manufacturers should be required to provide replacement batteries and replacement seals, which allow any remotely competent repair shop to replace the battery, I there is a need for it. Edit: If you are curious, this is one of the easier ways to get down voted on HN. This isn't the first time this topic came up, but as of now nobody has really tried to argue against this, which I always thought kind of disappointing.

jfengel 2y ago
I agree that I don't particularly want my device to have to optimize its design for a once-every-two-years operation. I'm just fine with taking my phone to an expert for that, and having it optimized for size/weight/power/whatever for the other 729 days out of 730. I know that people have been replacing their phones rather than getting a new battery, and that is a lot of waste. I hope that the new rule will shift people away from that. But for me I've never had a problem letting someone else do it for me.
gausswho 2y ago
Say a trip to the repair shop comes with an inconvenience and price margin that discourages 80% of battery replacements of occurring. This throws phones in landfills before they need to be there. You could argue that many more phones die this way than ones that do from exposure to water or fine sand. If so, a corollary could argue that the onus should be on those who need such features to rely on the aftermarket for them, for the sake of both the consumer and the health of the planet.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  I don't want every single phone to be worse just because people are too lazy to go to a repair shop. Inevitably not glueing phones shut will lead to an increase in waste as other mechanisms will fail more often.
- 2y ago

severine 2y ago

What about laptops?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

shinryuu 2y ago

Would be real nice with replaceable batteries, hdd, and ram for laptops too!

DocTomoe 2y ago
Buy a laptop that has that feature. I prefer my slim devices. I've been hauling Thinkpads around for long enough.
- Const-me 2y ago
  Here’s an example of a modern laptop with replaceable battery, disk and RAM: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-zbook-firefly-14-inch-g11-a-mobile-workstation-pc-wolf-pro-security-edition-p-a19g4ua-aba-1 https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-zbook-firefly-14-inch-g...

karmakaze 2y ago

I'm sensing that this may be too little or late. By 2027 our battery tech will probably have advanced that phones will be replaced sooner than their batteries deteriorate. To prevent e-waste we'll need more upgradable devices with user-exchangeable components beyond batteries. Still a move in the right direction.

squidbeak 2y ago
As a redundancy in case battery tech improvements turn out to be slower, it's a good change.
kasabali 2y ago
What makes you think the battery technology we've been using in consumer electronic devices for the past 20 years will improve suddenly and dramatically in next 3 years?
- karmakaze 2y ago
  It's not only the batteries, but charging circuits are getting much smarter about increasing the longevity of batteries, we also have eco cores that limit current draw for common tasks. All tech is getting better. The only thing that's concerning is if there's an increase demand for power running ML on device.

DocTomoe 2y ago

No, it doesn't necessarily. And yes, IANAL. When you look at the regulation [1], you see several potential loopholes. Firstly, the regulation does not say an appliance MUST allow removal and replacement of batteries by end-users, but SHOULD allow it. The capability is not meant to allow for swapping batteries to increase user comfort (e.g. by replacing a dying one with a new one), but primarily to allow for disposal and recycling of the battery. This is likely to create new EU legislations that put more burdens on the end-user (e.g. having to remove and separately dispose of the battery instead of dropping the device off at a recycling center). Then, in paragraph 38, a battery is considered replaceable by the end-user if the end-user can replace it with generally and commercially available tools. A manufacturer could, for instance, make replacement dependant on a tool that they individually sell for an absurd amount of money, and would be in compliance with the regulation. In paragraph 39, the text shows again that there is no general requirement for a manufacturer to allow user-replacement in all cases. Some example given when this is not considered necessary are water-resistance, and safety concerns. A smartphone manufacturer could easily argue that the battery is too fragile to be handled by end-users and doing so risks lithium fires. These exceptions then are codified in Article 11, which uses 'shall', not 'must', and which gives us another reason when this does not apply - for devices which need to have power constantly, e.g. for the integrity of data collection. Which you could easily argue that smartphones fall under. In subpoint 4, it points out that the list of excepted devices can be extended whenever they so feel like - all it takes is a series of kids who start burning themselves while mishandling batteries, ideally on social media, and smartphones are explicitly exempt after the outcry. [1] https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT...

orra 2y ago
> And yes, IANAL. Politely, you're presumably not a lawyer of European law. > Then, in paragraph 38 [. . .] In paragraph 39 They're called Recitals, and I'm not sure why you're so focused on them. Recitals help clarify purpose but are not legally binding[1]. > These exceptions then are codified in Article 11, which uses 'shall', not 'must' This proves the opposite of the point you're making. Shall denotes an obligation[2]. > which gives us another reason when this does not apply - for devices which need to have power constantly, e.g. for the integrity of data collection. Which you could easily argue that smartphones fall under. Come on. That's not a good faith interpretation of the exception. [1] https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-009-6368?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default) https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-009-6368?transi... [2] https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/c45f5b70-2d0e-4da7-b181-b5fe3a16c4bb_en https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/c45f5b70-2d0e... paragraph 10.27

Findecanor 2y ago

The EU decided on this regulation about a year ago. [0] From my understanding, the most important point was to make it easier to recycle rare earth minerals in rechargeable batteries so as not to be as reliant on countries outside the EU (read: China) where they are mined. [0]. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023...

wkat4242 2y ago
Makes sense and it will also increase the longevity of phones. I welcome the change. It doesn't have to be as easy as it was with e.g. the Samsung S5 or the xcovers (which, by the way are still waterproof). But as far as i understand it a simple tool like a screwdriver can be used. It also means I won't have to mollycoddle my phone battery so much (limiting charge to 80% etc) because I can just charge it and get a fresh one after a year or 2-3.
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> From my understanding, the most important point was to make it easier to recycle rare earth minerals in rechargeable batteries... I guess because from a user point of view it doesn't make much sense: by the time the battery is dead, the phone is so outdated it serves no use anymore. And this comes as someone using old smartphones (still on their first battery).
- pfg 2y ago
  I'm perfectly happy with the performance of my iPhone SE (2020), and it's still receiving software updates, but the battery is severely degraded. The same was true for my first-generation iPhone SE; I was able to get a cheap replacement back then due to Apple's battery replacement program related to batterygate. Access to cheap replacement batteries would definitely have an impact when deciding whether I should replace my phone or not. I believe Apple even mentioned the battery replacement program being a factor contributing to lower-than-expected sales a few years ago (sorry, can't find the source).
- 2y ago

Animats 2y ago

By 2027, phones should be using solid-state batteries that will outlive the phone.

TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
It is more likely that by 2027 fairy tale about solid state batteries just around the corner will be still going strong.

dusted 2y ago

For that to have any actual positive effect, they need to also dictate some specification to be followed, so that you can actually re-use the batteries when they outlast the phones.. (broken phone, new phone and so on)

lencastre 2y ago

So iPhone19ish? I’m sure it will be touted as the greatest innovation,… the unapologetically battery replacement capable iPhone, the most advanced yet.

nickpp 2y ago

There are thousands trade offs going into each product. Demanding that a subset of these trade offs must include certain solutions in effect elevates those solutions' importance above all the other issues, past or future, encountered or unforeseen. That is simply dumb. It prevents improvements, innovation and future advances of said product while pandering to a current political base sensible to said issues. It is another way a country stagnates,

drzzhan 2y ago

This is such a great change. Most of the time my friend changing phone is because of the battery. The battery is dead, the phone is old, and replacing battery service is expensive, so they might as well buy a new one. Now with this, we will have another option to just replace the battery ourselve and move on (Well unless the manufacturers don't sell them)

M95D 2y ago

My 10y old phone sill has a lot of battery left. What I'm missing is a replaceable kernel!