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Hidden in temple basements across India are manuscripts, undeciphered, some of which speak to this ancient era. Preserve them before they rot! Archaeological an

Hidden in temple basements across India are manuscripts, undeciphered, some of which speak to this ancient era. Preserve them before they rot! Archaeological and historical preservation in India needs attention and resources.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ceejayoz 2y ago
Is there reason to believe they’re going to rot if they haven’t after 2,000 years already?
- apetersson 2y ago
  Humidity
  - jelliclesfarm 2y ago
    How manuscripts used to be preserved : https://drperumal.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/indigenous-methods-of-conservation/ https://drperumal.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/indigenous-method... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03400352221103899 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03400352221103... I have been to a few museums and libraries where the palmyra manuscripts and texts are still preserved. They should remain with people who value them instead of handing them over to the govt. In our home library, we lost so many books where the pages were so brittle that they would break like biscuits. But the religious palm leaf scripts that have been in the family for generations were well preserved as they were wrapped in cloth. We also had some inscriptions on copper plates or some other kind of alloy metal. They were at the altar in the prayer room and kept submerged in water always. I don’t know what language it was but it was none of the known modern languages. Even today., in the deep south, there are palm leaf astrologers whose lineage have owned Nadi astrology palm leaf manuscripts that is supposed to relate everything about you life and past lives including when you will visit the astrologer. There are some authentic lineages. The text is written in Vatteluttu and script knowledge is passed down lineages only https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatteluttu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatteluttu Nadi astrology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_astrology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_astrology
    - dr_dshiv 2y ago
      “…also requires knowledge of genuine Nādi texts, most of which are unpublished, and the custodians do not allow others to see the manuscripts. The same is the case with Samhitā texts in north India, such as Bhrigu Samhitā or Rāvana Samhitā.”
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Is there reason to believe temples in India haven't experienced humidity in the last 2,000 years?
    - NoRagrets 2y ago
      They used to be sealed. HR&CE is the govt arm that is controlling Hindu Temples. It is infiltrated by anti Hindu interests who have been selling temple artifacts and manuscripts by smuggling them out of the country for hundreds of thousands of dollars.. many have been taken out of the humidity controlled vaults built by the Kings. They have been drilling and building within temple stone walls that are hundreds of years old and installing ceilings fans and lights. Here are just a few of the recent HR&CE crimes : https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1806747391917511165 https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1806747391917511165 And this: https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1807105132087452000 https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1807105132087452000
      - sharpshadow 2y ago
        Your comments here confirm my suspicion about the way the Indian government is handling the Hindu past. Sometimes I watch the YT channel of Praveen Mohan who is visiting ancient temples of the area and has difficulties to understand the dating of those, which the Indian government has a hand on and does not allow any other point of view. There is a strong likelihood that some of the those temples are much older than the date there given.
        jelliclesfarm 2y ago
        Praveen Mohan is a YouTube influencer. He is hardly an authority on anything except bad takes.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        A more reputable source than a Twitter screenshot of an unknown, uncited news source would be worthwhile here.
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  Yes.
anukin 2y ago
Vast majority of those manuscripts were either burned or destroyed during the Islamic invasion during Middle Ages. Also can you at least point out to some temples which house these and archeological survey of India have not already done steps to preserve those temples?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  We get told about Islam preserving greek thought/history. Did Islam not do the same for Indian thought/history?
  - christkv 2y ago
    The main preservation of greek texts was the byzantine empire not the Arab world. If you take a second to think about it was the Greek Roman Empire. Until it fell it was the heart of the knowledge of Rome and Greece.
    - interiorchurch 2y ago
      "Muslim empires preserved Greek learning" is a half-truth, because the medieval Latins traded more with the Arabs than they did with Byzantium. Thus when they got Aristotle etc. it tended to be from Arab sources, even though Constantinople had much better copies.
      - ffgjgf1 2y ago
        > because the medieval Latins traded more with the Arabs than they did with Byzantium That’s really not even remotely true. The Empire was the primary foreign market for all the Italian merchant republics. They almost always had a significant presence in Constantinople and in later periods almost controlled internal trade in the empire. The Venetians especially were highly reliant on their trade with Constantinople until quite late.
bee_rider 2y ago
What’s the current state in the field? I suppose there must be some preservation attempts already going on, even if they need more resources. I’m surprised at the response you got, which seems like… skepticism bordering on hostility. Is there a reason this should be a hot button issue? (Please excuse my ignorance, if it is at all redemptive, it isn’t India-specific I just don’t know anything about archeology in general, haha).
- jelliclesfarm 2y ago
  Politics. A lot of items of archeological significance was looted by the British and many were smuggled out. During Mughal invasions, the priests buried the idols and inscriptions and many were drowned for safe keeping. As many rural areas are being developed, these are all coming out. Current state is politics ( at least in the southern states) is such that all Hindu temples are under the control of the state. The corrupt ruling parties have claimed all the revenues and have appropriated land that used to belong to temples and were rented out for services. Temples used to run schools and fed the needy population as the land donated by the rulers and they were essentially outsourcing the work to the temples. This was interrupted during the 250 years of colonial rule when the British eliminated kingdoms. Further complicating the issue are the other religionists of Islam and Christianity who have strong conversion agendas and are being funded by foreign interests. For example. The issue of the WAQF board of Islam. Recently this came up in the news : [..]The Tamil Nadu Waqf Board has claimed ownership of the 1500-year-old Manendiyavalli Chandrashekhara Swami temple land. The temple has 369 acres of property in and around Tiruchenthurai village in the Tiruchi District of Tamil Nadu.[..] How is it possible that a 1500 year old temple can be owned by a religious board that is younger than the temple? And I found this article: https://organiser.org/2023/01/30/106679/bharat/106679/ https://organiser.org/2023/01/30/106679/bharat/106679/.. it was specific to that region but spoke about the WAQF Board. And I had to learn what the WAQF board was and learn more from here:https://www.opindia.com/2022/09/waqf-boards-india-properties-history/amp/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/09/waqf-boards-india-properties... [..]The very literal meaning of Waqf is detention or confinement and prohibition. As per Islam, it is the property that is now available only for religious or charitable purposes, and any other use or sale of the property is prohibited. As per Sharia law, once Waqf is established, and the property is dedicated to Waqf, it remains as Waqf property forever. Waqf means that the ownership of the property is now taken away from the person making Waqf and transferred and detained by Allah. As per Sharia, this property is now permanently dedicated to Allah, making Waqf irrevocable in nature. ‘Waqif’ is a person who creates a waqf for the beneficiary. As Waqf properties are bestowed upon Allah, in the absence of a physically tangible entity, a ‘mutawalli’ is appointed by the waqif, or by a competent authority, to manage or administer a Waqf. The history of Waqf and Waqf Boards in India In India, the history of Waqf can be traced back to the early days of the Delhi Sultanate when Sultan Muizuddin Sam Ghaor dedicated two villages in favour of the Jama Masjid of Multan and handed its administration to Shaikhul Islam. As the Delhi Sultanate and later Islamic dynasties flourished in India, the number of Waqf properties kept increasing in India.[..] I am still diving into that rabbithole. And I don’t think it’s relevant to post here. Back to the topic.. I would prefer if Hindu artifacts and texts and ancient Indian history remains hidden. It is not a safe space out there because even though India is allegedly a Hindu majority country, there are strong interests to wish to erase the Hindu identity of India and weaken the only polytheistic faith that managed to survive millennia. In the article, there were artifacts that depicted Hindu Gods(Krishna, Balaram and Ekanamsa)but the word Hindu did not occur even once. Sadly, it only confirmed my suspicion that western academia wants to erase Hindu history.
ErigmolCt 2y ago
The preservation of ancient manuscripts in India is not just a cultural imperative but also a scholarly necessity.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ceejayoz 2y ago

Is there reason to believe they’re going to rot if they haven’t after 2,000 years already?

apetersson 2y ago
Humidity
- jelliclesfarm 2y ago
  How manuscripts used to be preserved : https://drperumal.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/indigenous-methods-of-conservation/ https://drperumal.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/indigenous-method... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03400352221103899 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03400352221103... I have been to a few museums and libraries where the palmyra manuscripts and texts are still preserved. They should remain with people who value them instead of handing them over to the govt. In our home library, we lost so many books where the pages were so brittle that they would break like biscuits. But the religious palm leaf scripts that have been in the family for generations were well preserved as they were wrapped in cloth. We also had some inscriptions on copper plates or some other kind of alloy metal. They were at the altar in the prayer room and kept submerged in water always. I don’t know what language it was but it was none of the known modern languages. Even today., in the deep south, there are palm leaf astrologers whose lineage have owned Nadi astrology palm leaf manuscripts that is supposed to relate everything about you life and past lives including when you will visit the astrologer. There are some authentic lineages. The text is written in Vatteluttu and script knowledge is passed down lineages only https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatteluttu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatteluttu Nadi astrology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_astrology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_astrology
  - dr_dshiv 2y ago
    “…also requires knowledge of genuine Nādi texts, most of which are unpublished, and the custodians do not allow others to see the manuscripts. The same is the case with Samhitā texts in north India, such as Bhrigu Samhitā or Rāvana Samhitā.”
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Is there reason to believe temples in India haven't experienced humidity in the last 2,000 years?
  - NoRagrets 2y ago
    They used to be sealed. HR&CE is the govt arm that is controlling Hindu Temples. It is infiltrated by anti Hindu interests who have been selling temple artifacts and manuscripts by smuggling them out of the country for hundreds of thousands of dollars.. many have been taken out of the humidity controlled vaults built by the Kings. They have been drilling and building within temple stone walls that are hundreds of years old and installing ceilings fans and lights. Here are just a few of the recent HR&CE crimes : https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1806747391917511165 https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1806747391917511165 And this: https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1807105132087452000 https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1807105132087452000
    - sharpshadow 2y ago
      Your comments here confirm my suspicion about the way the Indian government is handling the Hindu past. Sometimes I watch the YT channel of Praveen Mohan who is visiting ancient temples of the area and has difficulties to understand the dating of those, which the Indian government has a hand on and does not allow any other point of view. There is a strong likelihood that some of the those temples are much older than the date there given.
      - jelliclesfarm 2y ago
        Praveen Mohan is a YouTube influencer. He is hardly an authority on anything except bad takes.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      A more reputable source than a Twitter screenshot of an unknown, uncited news source would be worthwhile here.
Brian_K_White 2y ago
Yes.

anukin 2y ago

Vast majority of those manuscripts were either burned or destroyed during the Islamic invasion during Middle Ages. Also can you at least point out to some temples which house these and archeological survey of India have not already done steps to preserve those temples?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
We get told about Islam preserving greek thought/history. Did Islam not do the same for Indian thought/history?
- christkv 2y ago
  The main preservation of greek texts was the byzantine empire not the Arab world. If you take a second to think about it was the Greek Roman Empire. Until it fell it was the heart of the knowledge of Rome and Greece.
  - interiorchurch 2y ago
    "Muslim empires preserved Greek learning" is a half-truth, because the medieval Latins traded more with the Arabs than they did with Byzantium. Thus when they got Aristotle etc. it tended to be from Arab sources, even though Constantinople had much better copies.
    - ffgjgf1 2y ago
      > because the medieval Latins traded more with the Arabs than they did with Byzantium That’s really not even remotely true. The Empire was the primary foreign market for all the Italian merchant republics. They almost always had a significant presence in Constantinople and in later periods almost controlled internal trade in the empire. The Venetians especially were highly reliant on their trade with Constantinople until quite late.

bee_rider 2y ago

What’s the current state in the field? I suppose there must be some preservation attempts already going on, even if they need more resources. I’m surprised at the response you got, which seems like… skepticism bordering on hostility. Is there a reason this should be a hot button issue? (Please excuse my ignorance, if it is at all redemptive, it isn’t India-specific I just don’t know anything about archeology in general, haha).

jelliclesfarm 2y ago
Politics. A lot of items of archeological significance was looted by the British and many were smuggled out. During Mughal invasions, the priests buried the idols and inscriptions and many were drowned for safe keeping. As many rural areas are being developed, these are all coming out. Current state is politics ( at least in the southern states) is such that all Hindu temples are under the control of the state. The corrupt ruling parties have claimed all the revenues and have appropriated land that used to belong to temples and were rented out for services. Temples used to run schools and fed the needy population as the land donated by the rulers and they were essentially outsourcing the work to the temples. This was interrupted during the 250 years of colonial rule when the British eliminated kingdoms. Further complicating the issue are the other religionists of Islam and Christianity who have strong conversion agendas and are being funded by foreign interests. For example. The issue of the WAQF board of Islam. Recently this came up in the news : [..]The Tamil Nadu Waqf Board has claimed ownership of the 1500-year-old Manendiyavalli Chandrashekhara Swami temple land. The temple has 369 acres of property in and around Tiruchenthurai village in the Tiruchi District of Tamil Nadu.[..] How is it possible that a 1500 year old temple can be owned by a religious board that is younger than the temple? And I found this article: https://organiser.org/2023/01/30/106679/bharat/106679/ https://organiser.org/2023/01/30/106679/bharat/106679/.. it was specific to that region but spoke about the WAQF Board. And I had to learn what the WAQF board was and learn more from here:https://www.opindia.com/2022/09/waqf-boards-india-properties-history/amp/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/09/waqf-boards-india-properties... [..]The very literal meaning of Waqf is detention or confinement and prohibition. As per Islam, it is the property that is now available only for religious or charitable purposes, and any other use or sale of the property is prohibited. As per Sharia law, once Waqf is established, and the property is dedicated to Waqf, it remains as Waqf property forever. Waqf means that the ownership of the property is now taken away from the person making Waqf and transferred and detained by Allah. As per Sharia, this property is now permanently dedicated to Allah, making Waqf irrevocable in nature. ‘Waqif’ is a person who creates a waqf for the beneficiary. As Waqf properties are bestowed upon Allah, in the absence of a physically tangible entity, a ‘mutawalli’ is appointed by the waqif, or by a competent authority, to manage or administer a Waqf. The history of Waqf and Waqf Boards in India In India, the history of Waqf can be traced back to the early days of the Delhi Sultanate when Sultan Muizuddin Sam Ghaor dedicated two villages in favour of the Jama Masjid of Multan and handed its administration to Shaikhul Islam. As the Delhi Sultanate and later Islamic dynasties flourished in India, the number of Waqf properties kept increasing in India.[..] I am still diving into that rabbithole. And I don’t think it’s relevant to post here. Back to the topic.. I would prefer if Hindu artifacts and texts and ancient Indian history remains hidden. It is not a safe space out there because even though India is allegedly a Hindu majority country, there are strong interests to wish to erase the Hindu identity of India and weaken the only polytheistic faith that managed to survive millennia. In the article, there were artifacts that depicted Hindu Gods(Krishna, Balaram and Ekanamsa)but the word Hindu did not occur even once. Sadly, it only confirmed my suspicion that western academia wants to erase Hindu history.

ErigmolCt 2y ago

The preservation of ancient manuscripts in India is not just a cultural imperative but also a scholarly necessity.