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dash2 2y ago

When you say "disability", what do you mean exactly? Is it a specific disease, or do you just mean "I find networking difficult, and it feels immoral"?

giantg2 2y ago
I'm nuerodivergent. Being likeable and similar to hiring managers is not something that most nuerodivergent people are able to do at the same level as most "normal" people.
- throwthrowuknow 2y ago
  Maybe become friends with people similar to you in the industry you work in and they can let you know when there are open positions and put in a good word for you? Networking doesn’t mean being friends with HR or hiring managers, it just means getting your foot in the door via an acquaintance since someone saying “I know this person” can put you ahead of other random applicants.
- dash2 2y ago
  Diagnosed by a doctor? I'm terribly sorry, but this just sounds like a long word for "I find it hard to be likeable". So do I, but I don't think of it as a disability: it's a part of my character, which to a reasonable degree I consider worth trying to change. I also notice that your sympathy for yourself is not matched by an equal tolerance for other people. "Just because something is evolutionary doesn't make it right," you say of the fact that other people like people who try to be nice. You then compare it to insider trading. Gosh... seems like the rest of the human race are terrible people!
  - em-bee 2y ago
    for me the main factor that makes someone likeable is how nice they are to or how much they like me and others. so i see someone display a dislike to others or to me, then i won't like them either.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Yes, diagnosed. "I also notice that your sympathy for yourself is not matched by an equal tolerance for other people." Where do you see that? The thing I'm advocating for (removing or reducing networking in the hiring process) will positively effect many more people than myself. It will also positively effect other groups that I'm not a member of (races, ethnicities, cultures, etc). "You then compare it to insider trading. Gosh... seems like the rest of the human race are terrible people!" I'm not saying the people are terrible. But perhaps they are ignorant. Insider trading wasn't illegal until 1909. So do you consider all the people before that terrible? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing was hurting other people. Maybe all they saw were the benefits. What is insider trading? You're using privileged information to capture value. In this case, using non-public information about a stock (possible gained through your network) to buy or sell the stock early. What is networking in relation to this? You're using privileged information to capture value. In this case you're getting information not given in posting via an insider. You might hear about a future opening before its ever gers posted. You might go through the interview as a formality even though they already made their choice. The stats I've seen say that 85% of jobs are found through networking. What we end up with are the same types of bad behavior in the job market as we've seen in the past for the stock market. We see constant complaints from people here and elsewhere about fake or evergreen job postings (v. securities fraud/misrepresentation), shady hiring practices or requirements (v. Fiduciary misconduct), overhiring knowing the budget wont support it then just laying off within a year (v. pump and dump), etc. This is a massive disadvantage to people who don't have an insider. This disproportionately affects people in minority groups and those with disabilities. Many of the types of misconduct that are regulated in other markets like the stock market or commerce are not regulated in the job market.
    - dash2 2y ago
      You are hoping to replace the fact that society exists and the economy exists within its context. There is no other way to prevent people from networking to get jobs and promotions. You've also now stretched the concept to include numerous other bad things like overhiring and fake job postings. The stock market is arguably over-regulated as it is, which may be why we now see a large-scale return to private markets; extending this level of regulation to the entire job market is a crazy, unrealistic idea.
      - giantg2 2y ago
        "The stock market is arguably over-regulated as it is, which may be why we now see a large-scale return to private markets;" Lol I don't think there's a single reputable analyst that agrees with your analysis. Private equity has serious ethical issues with the way many outfits operate. It sounds like you don't have a strong understanding of ethics based on your comments. If you want to just play by low regulation or natural law, than I might as well just take your stuff. If they can't enforce it (catch me), then I guess it's right for me to do so.
        dash2 2y ago
        There are many reputable analysts who agree with my analysis. Here's one: https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/hastlj68&div=19&id=&page= https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/.... Here's another: https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/emlj55&div=10&id=&page= https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/.... I'm not an expert on this: I just spent one minute on Google Scholar. You could have done the same. Private equity is nothing to do with public stock markets. That's why it's called private equity. They buy firms that don't trade on stock markets. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity You think I don't understand ethics, but are you sure you understand finance?

kmoser 2y ago
> you mean like hackernews? i have been active here for years without it leading to any kind of notable connection. Do you read the threads about who's hiring, and post on the threads asking for who's looking for work? > so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere? Do you mean this as hyperbole? In any case, there is no single answer because it depends on many factors. If you think abandoning every bit of your network, even if it has led to few if any connections, is the right solution, then sure, go ahead. But that sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts. > trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy. Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing. This applies whether you're working or not (although if you're not currently working, doesn't that give you more time to network?). As to whether you have time, or where to focus your efforts, that's a different issue. Because you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from, there's no right or wrong answer to how much time you "should" be spending networking or where you should be spending it. Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place to continue to make connections and communicate with them, in whatever way and at whatever frequency works for you. Yes, doing this requires effort, but nobody is saying you should do it to the point where other parts of your life suffer. At the end of the day, networking, like anything else, should be at least somewhat enjoyable. If you're not comfortable in person, do it online. If you can't find an online forum where you feel comfortable, make your own (although it's pretty clear you're comfortable here on HN since you've stuck around for so long). If the way you're networking now is not enjoyable, I'd urge you to find a way that is. These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.
- em-bee 2y ago
  so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere? > abandoning every bit of your network [...] sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts i didn't mean abandoning the network i have, but abandoning my current attempts to build a network and trying different ways to build a network instead. what i am trying to say is that whatever i have been trying to build a network has not lead to any meaningful connections. and what few connections i have been able to make, none have been helpful in finding work. so those connections are either not the right ones, or i am not connected well enough (connections don't know me well enough) or i simply do not have enough of them. i have no idea how to measure that. how does a healthy network look like? are the 300 people i am connected to on linkedin but never talk to, and most of whom i barely know, enough? do i need to engage them more? or should i connect to more people instead? should i try to connect to different kinds of people? what level of friendship does it take for a connection to be helpful? i have been doing this for more than two decades, and in that time a single job or client was the result of a referral from people i knew, one came directly from someone i have known years earlier, and a few early on came from being a member in a small community. but since then nothing. every other job was hustle and applying to open positions. don't you think that after more than a decade of trying without success, i shouldn't question the approach? how long should i try doubling down? another 10 years? > trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy. Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing. because building a connection to someone takes longer than the time i can afford to be out of work. i am not suggesting that i should stop with networking, but that spending more time on networking is not going to make enough of a difference when i need a job right away. i am in the lucky position that i saved enough money to actually be able to afford to be out of work for more than a few months. but even that money will run out if i don't find work eventually. you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from well if past performance is any indication, then it is not coming from my networking efforts. connections are known to help get work but my connections are not getting me any work. something must be wrong with my network or with my efforts at networking. but i can't figure out what that is. can you see why i am confused? Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place you are in a minority with that opinion. most comments on HN that i have seen over the years suggest that linkedin is useless. of course there may be survivorship bias there. i wager most of those people are not even trying to use linkedin. and neither was i. so that would be one of the things for me to change. These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable. i'd like to dispute that statement. i can't think of more than half a dozen ways. maybe a dozen, but then half of those are out of my reach. to be more practical, let's make an actual list. if you can think of any other ways, please add to the list: in person: 1: go to tech and networking events and meetups. (only possible if you live in a big city with an active community). 2: go to conferences. (requires time and money) 3: speak at conferences (takes advanced preparation time as well as money) online: 4: join online networking events. (there are some, but i feel they are hard to find. most online events are talks/workshops without any opportunity for the audience to connect to each other) 5: give talks at online conferences or participate in podcasts. (takes advanced preparation time) 6: participate in online communities/forums/mailinglists. (seems to work better in small communities. requires effort to help others in order to stand out as knowledgeable and helpful. standing out on HN or stackoverflow is difficult. not sure about linkedin) 7: write a blog (takes a very long time to build up an audience) that's all that i can think of. i have tried all of those at some point. 1, 2 and 3 are out of reach for me right now. i am not having any success with 6 or 7, but i haven't tried linkedin yet. and i want to revisit 4 and possibly 5. btw: i tried in person networking events when i had the opportunity. after a few years doing that in beijing i felt i was getting somewhere, and then we had to move. likewise in vienna, but there i felt that i was getting somewhere after a few months. but it took a lot of effort. i went out at least 2, sometimes 3 or 4 times a week. very taxing on my family. generally, i don't think more than once or twice a week is advisable if you want to keep your wife happy. if you are alone of course then have at it.
memen 2y ago
You say none of your activities got you a job offer, but did you get anyone else a job offer or did you create/pointed out opportunities for others? Maybe trying to do that helps in finding ways to be on the receiving end of such opportunities.
- em-bee 2y ago
  i think i would pass on such opportunities if i came across any. heck, i even created chat groups to help people share and find jobs (with hundreds of participants) but i can't remember the last time that i was able to pass on an opportunity directly. well, actually, just last week a friend contacted me about a job that didn't fit me, but i can't think of anyone i know that i could pass it on to.