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Its not. The whole ecosystem around it is an example of Conways law and and a Google product. None of the people using it are google. Google, also, runs its

Its not. The whole ecosystem around it is an example of Conways law and and a Google product. None of the people using it are google. Google, also, runs its own hardware. Shockingly it is a great product if you rent hardware, autoscaling is autospending. No one knows what a feature costs any more because its all just a big bucket your pouring money into for amazon to have 30 percent margin on. We need operations people again, we need to stop using containers as bags for shitty "software" ... Do actual engineering.

milkglass 2y ago
Where's all the good operations people at nowadays? Have worked with numerous cloud native engineers that do not have good foundational knowledge.
- llama052 2y ago
  I think that's the issue, it's not the tooling. Kubernetes is great... unfortunately people are awful at unpacking the underlying layers.
- betaby 2y ago
  > cloud native engineers That's the problem. Yes, I'm the old man yelling at cloud, but indeed 'kids this days' don't know Linux, they know how to provision things from Terraform. In fact it feels like logging in via ssh and checking process with with `strace` is a lost art. Checking PCAP? That's a black magic!
  - sadops 2y ago
    This is the elephant in the room: all "new" technology isn't fundamentally new. Terraform is just curl with state management for lots of different websites, Andible is just a YAML to Bash converter, and so on. If you have good fundamentals, not only are these things easy, they're also incredibly frustrating, because you can easily see their limitations. You can always tell how experienced someone is by how well they know what a given tool is actually doing under the hood. People who exhibit shock and awe will just mess up your codebase, because they have no clue how the machine actually works. No, I want to hire the grumpy, cynical greybeards, because they know their fundamentals, and they're immune to shiny bullshit. There's no substitute for skill and experience, despite what the modern tech discourse says. "Anyone can program!" And yet, we have threads like this, where we find out, SHOCKER, that the best codebases are the ones maintained by like... four senior developers, half of whom contributed to several Internet RFCs, and half of whom used to work at Bell Labs. I feel like we are through the looking glass.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - udev4096 2y ago
      Ansible is a lot more than just "YAML to Bash". For instance, Bash scripts are not idempotent. Ansible playbooks are. Sure, you can hack together a way to ssh and run commands very easily but it will break at some point
      - p_l 2y ago
        Ansible playbooks are as idempotent as bash scripts. You need to include checks when writing them so they actually are idempotent, just like with bash script, and they happily leak idempotency-breaking details like "restarting a service" works only if a) service currently runs b) because "restart" is a command, not expected state of "the service was restarted and is now running
      - bigstrat2003 2y ago
        Bash scripts are as idempotent as you want to make them, so I think the comparison holds.
        udev4096 2y ago
        If it were that easy, no one would be using Ansible
    - sgarland 2y ago
      > There's no substitute for skill and experience, despite what the modern tech discourse says. "Anyone can program!" I’m told this is gatekeeping. Yes, and…? I’ve always found it amusing that I see little to no anger being directed at kernel devs for their gatekeeping. Almost as if deep down, people know that they shouldn’t be fucking with the thing that runs the world unless they are actually good at it. Or maybe they’re just afraid of Torvalds.
      - bigstrat2003 2y ago
  - aliasxneo 2y ago
    I think this comment is a bit unfair. A lot of work goes into not having to do those things. Good immutability often means less need for babying a specific server. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to do those things, so yes it’s becoming a lost art to me. However, on the rare occasion I need this sort of insight I do fine with JIT research.
  - sgarland 2y ago
    It’s the logical outcome for most when you don’t grow up being told to RTFM, you’ve never had to recompile a kernel to get an expansion card to work, and you’ve never touched hardware.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  > Where's all the good operations people at nowadays? Still in the same place they were 20 years ago. They’ve just been lost in the swamp of their peers that know nothing.
llama052 2y ago
Kubernetes is actually extremely popular all around the world. Chickfila if I recall correctly deploy it in every single store! A lot of big dinosaur corporations are implementing it actively. Unfortunately VMs or Kubernetes or whatever tooling is still going to suck if you have shitty people using them.
- chris_wot 2y ago
  VMs are going to suck if you use VMWare and they hike the price four fold.
whoknowsidont 2y ago
>The whole ecosystem around it is an example of Conways law This is such an inaccurate take. >we need to stop using containers as bags Containers and container orchestration are a NEEDED and REQUIRED piece of the technology stack in the current reality. That doesn't mean people need to be ignorant of the details that make them work. As someone who's been around for a while we are in a better place than when we had "dedicated operations people" that just gatekept everything. What you hate are teams just parroting what other people are doing with the tech, not the tech itself. But let me tell you, if you're going to have teams of people pretend to know what they're doing wrapping it in a standard "bag" sure does make it a hell of a lot fucking easier to unfuck when things go wrong.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  > Containers and container orchestration are a NEEDED and REQUIRED piece of the technology stack in the current reality. If you're deploying NODEjs apps to the cloud, they sure are. > if you're going to have teams of people pretend to know what they're doing wrapping it in a standard "bag" sure does make it a hell of a lot fucking easier to unfuck when things go wrong. No one looks in the bag, they just roll back, the bag is opaque, the bag breeds more bags, less trnasparency and higher costs. Step back and read what you wrote, if you described any other relationship in your life in these terms, your friends would be having an intervention. The codependent circle jerk has enabled so much bad behavior. The tooling you're advocating for is an enabler. I want App Store like software roll outs. The infrastructure we have is kind of like that, if you don't look too close. We need to start doing the hard work to make it not suck. We need to stop pretending that this is a good place and put in the work to make it better. Otherwise its never going to get untucked...
  - whoknowsidont 2y ago
    >If you're deploying NODEjs apps to the cloud, they sure are. I don't use nodejs. >No one looks in the bag I sure have. Plenty of times. >if you described any other relationship in your life in these terms, your friends would be having an intervention. For having a standard tool that you know how to use? That doesn't seem correct and it certainly isn't proportional. >I want App Store like software roll outs. Okay it sounds like you want K8's.

milkglass 2y ago

Where's all the good operations people at nowadays? Have worked with numerous cloud native engineers that do not have good foundational knowledge.

llama052 2y ago
I think that's the issue, it's not the tooling. Kubernetes is great... unfortunately people are awful at unpacking the underlying layers.
betaby 2y ago
> cloud native engineers That's the problem. Yes, I'm the old man yelling at cloud, but indeed 'kids this days' don't know Linux, they know how to provision things from Terraform. In fact it feels like logging in via ssh and checking process with with `strace` is a lost art. Checking PCAP? That's a black magic!
- sadops 2y ago
  This is the elephant in the room: all "new" technology isn't fundamentally new. Terraform is just curl with state management for lots of different websites, Andible is just a YAML to Bash converter, and so on. If you have good fundamentals, not only are these things easy, they're also incredibly frustrating, because you can easily see their limitations. You can always tell how experienced someone is by how well they know what a given tool is actually doing under the hood. People who exhibit shock and awe will just mess up your codebase, because they have no clue how the machine actually works. No, I want to hire the grumpy, cynical greybeards, because they know their fundamentals, and they're immune to shiny bullshit. There's no substitute for skill and experience, despite what the modern tech discourse says. "Anyone can program!" And yet, we have threads like this, where we find out, SHOCKER, that the best codebases are the ones maintained by like... four senior developers, half of whom contributed to several Internet RFCs, and half of whom used to work at Bell Labs. I feel like we are through the looking glass.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - udev4096 2y ago
    Ansible is a lot more than just "YAML to Bash". For instance, Bash scripts are not idempotent. Ansible playbooks are. Sure, you can hack together a way to ssh and run commands very easily but it will break at some point
    - p_l 2y ago
      Ansible playbooks are as idempotent as bash scripts. You need to include checks when writing them so they actually are idempotent, just like with bash script, and they happily leak idempotency-breaking details like "restarting a service" works only if a) service currently runs b) because "restart" is a command, not expected state of "the service was restarted and is now running
    - bigstrat2003 2y ago
      Bash scripts are as idempotent as you want to make them, so I think the comparison holds.
      - udev4096 2y ago
        If it were that easy, no one would be using Ansible
  - sgarland 2y ago
    > There's no substitute for skill and experience, despite what the modern tech discourse says. "Anyone can program!" I’m told this is gatekeeping. Yes, and…? I’ve always found it amusing that I see little to no anger being directed at kernel devs for their gatekeeping. Almost as if deep down, people know that they shouldn’t be fucking with the thing that runs the world unless they are actually good at it. Or maybe they’re just afraid of Torvalds.
    - bigstrat2003 2y ago
- aliasxneo 2y ago
  I think this comment is a bit unfair. A lot of work goes into not having to do those things. Good immutability often means less need for babying a specific server. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to do those things, so yes it’s becoming a lost art to me. However, on the rare occasion I need this sort of insight I do fine with JIT research.
- sgarland 2y ago
  It’s the logical outcome for most when you don’t grow up being told to RTFM, you’ve never had to recompile a kernel to get an expansion card to work, and you’ve never touched hardware.
Aeolun 2y ago
> Where's all the good operations people at nowadays? Still in the same place they were 20 years ago. They’ve just been lost in the swamp of their peers that know nothing.

llama052 2y ago

Kubernetes is actually extremely popular all around the world. Chickfila if I recall correctly deploy it in every single store! A lot of big dinosaur corporations are implementing it actively. Unfortunately VMs or Kubernetes or whatever tooling is still going to suck if you have shitty people using them.

chris_wot 2y ago
VMs are going to suck if you use VMWare and they hike the price four fold.

whoknowsidont 2y ago

>The whole ecosystem around it is an example of Conways law This is such an inaccurate take. >we need to stop using containers as bags Containers and container orchestration are a NEEDED and REQUIRED piece of the technology stack in the current reality. That doesn't mean people need to be ignorant of the details that make them work. As someone who's been around for a while we are in a better place than when we had "dedicated operations people" that just gatekept everything. What you hate are teams just parroting what other people are doing with the tech, not the tech itself. But let me tell you, if you're going to have teams of people pretend to know what they're doing wrapping it in a standard "bag" sure does make it a hell of a lot fucking easier to unfuck when things go wrong.

zer00eyz 2y ago
> Containers and container orchestration are a NEEDED and REQUIRED piece of the technology stack in the current reality. If you're deploying NODEjs apps to the cloud, they sure are. > if you're going to have teams of people pretend to know what they're doing wrapping it in a standard "bag" sure does make it a hell of a lot fucking easier to unfuck when things go wrong. No one looks in the bag, they just roll back, the bag is opaque, the bag breeds more bags, less trnasparency and higher costs. Step back and read what you wrote, if you described any other relationship in your life in these terms, your friends would be having an intervention. The codependent circle jerk has enabled so much bad behavior. The tooling you're advocating for is an enabler. I want App Store like software roll outs. The infrastructure we have is kind of like that, if you don't look too close. We need to start doing the hard work to make it not suck. We need to stop pretending that this is a good place and put in the work to make it better. Otherwise its never going to get untucked...
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  >If you're deploying NODEjs apps to the cloud, they sure are. I don't use nodejs. >No one looks in the bag I sure have. Plenty of times. >if you described any other relationship in your life in these terms, your friends would be having an intervention. For having a standard tool that you know how to use? That doesn't seem correct and it certainly isn't proportional. >I want App Store like software roll outs. Okay it sounds like you want K8's.