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Surprising Phosphate Finding in NASA's Osiris-Rex Asteroid Sample

95 points by kumarm 2y ago

mjevans 2y ago
What if the origin of Osiris-Rex (Asteroid) is higher energy debris from a major impact to Earth during the early stages of organic life on the planet. Wasn't one theory (?) for our moon's creation such an impact and then a large mass splitting off to form the moon? I could easily imagine smaller bodies with higher local concentrations of energy being ejected from such an event.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Perhaps it came from Earth when the Chuxhulub asteroid struck? It's really too bad we weren't able to get a sample from the ['Oumuamua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua) asteroid when it flew through the system. It was definitely an extra-solar asteroid, so it would have had material completely unrelated to our own system's formation and history.
  - alenrozac 2y ago
    There will be more like that, but we need to get better at identifying them. Just like with exoplanets.
    - pavel_lishin 2y ago
      Not just identifying them, but also being able to catch them in time. They're coming in at solar escape velocities, and going out with same - and the odds of everything being aligned in such a way that we can take several years to do gravity assists are incredibly low.
      - mathsmath 2y ago
        I wonder if a one-way trip with an impactor would be useful. It would at least be easier than a roundtrip journey to and from solar escape velocity. Also, it seems like the space base weapons treaty is being ignored now (https://spacenews.com/russia-vetoes-u-n-resolution-on-nuclear-weapons-in-space/ https://spacenews.com/russia-vetoes-u-n-resolution-on-nuclea..., https://www.npr.org/2024/05/30/nx-s1-4975741/what-to-know-russia-satellite-space-weapon-cosmos-2576 https://www.npr.org/2024/05/30/nx-s1-4975741/what-to-know-ru...). I wonder if there is an opportunity to do some science with space-based lasers and spectroscopy. The energy would be small, but then again we can learn a lot just from the off-gassing created by the sun’s photons as well.
        pavel_lishin 2y ago
        Oh yeah, I don't think we're anywhere near "sample return" capability for an extra-solar object. I doubt we're even near "impactor" capability, tbh. I think our best bet might be "catch up with something in the Oort somewhere around 2070, if we see something coming a decade ahead of time".
        mathsmath 2y ago
        Never underestimate the ability of humans to throw something really hard ;) I actually think if the object was on the right trajectory and we had enough time, that you could pretty much park an impactor in its path. You could probably do a lot of science based on the spectra of the resulting cloud. I agree that gently landing and return a sample with that much delta V is out of our reach at this point. Maybe with enough shielding, you could park a second sample return vehicle in the path of debris.
      - adolph 2y ago
        > odds of everything being aligned in such a way that we can take several years to do gravity assists are incredibly low. Project Lyra develops concepts for reaching interstellar objects such as 1I / 'Oumuamua and 2I / Borisov with a spacecraft, based on near-term technologies. [0] Several technology options are outlined, ranging from a close solar Oberth Maneuver using chemical propulsion, and the more advanced options of solar and laser sails. [1] 0. https://i4is.org/what-we-do/technical/project-lyra/ https://i4is.org/what-we-do/technical/project-lyra/ 1. https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.03155 https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.03155
        XorNot 2y ago
        It occurs to me since survivability isn't a problem for an unmanned probe, that a "cold" nuclear thermal engine vehicle could be used as a loitering interceptor: get it a solar orbit, and leave it till you see a target, then accelerate up to extra-solar escape velocity. It solves the disposal problem neatly, since the probe and reactor are both leaving the solar system forever afterwards.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  I don’t think there could have been life on Earth before the creation of the moon.
  - malux85 2y ago
    Why not? (I don’t know this field)
    - admissionsguy 2y ago
      The Moon forming impact (4.5 Gyr) occurred ~100 million years after Earth's formation. The earliest solid grain comes from another ~100 million years after that (4.4 Gyr). The earliest signs of life (4.1 Gyr) are from ~300 million years after the earliest grain. Does not seem implausible that life could have arisen during the first 100 million years as well. We know very little about that era since the impact liquified the whole surface.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        Wouldn’t the (pre Moon) Earth have been pretty hot after formation and probably no water either?
        admissionsguy 2y ago
        There's been some research from my alma mater that it might have had water even that early [1]. I haven't seen good data on the estimated temperature during this time (it was hot certainly, the question would be how frequently were there pockets where hyperthermophiles would be able survive). I like this paper's approach [2] - they end up with a small chance of life before the impact. [1] https://archive.is/NZwpJ https://archive.is/NZwpJ [2] https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ast.2005.5.154 https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ast.2005.5.154
      - malux85 2y ago
        Ah ok, didn’t know the moon formed that quickly, thank you for your detailed answer, very interesting :)
- wumms 2y ago
  From [0]: > Bennu's basic mineralogy and chemical nature would have been established during the first 10 million years of the Solar System's formation [...] > Bennu probably began in the inner asteroid belt as a fragment from a larger body with a diameter of 100 km. Simulations suggest a 70% chance it came from the Polana family and a 30% chance it derived from the Eulalia family. Impactors on boulders of Bennu indicate that Bennu has been in near Earth orbit (separated from the main asteroid belt) for 1–2.5 million years. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu#Origin_and_evolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu#Origin_and_evolut...
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Rocks on Earth (and the Moon) are distinguished by being on a specific line on the oxygen isotope plot, the SMOW (Standard Mean Ocean Water) line. This may reflect a large, homogenizing event in the early history of the Earth (like a giant impact that formed the Moon). The realization that meteorites come from multiple different parent bodies is that they are distributed widely, not all on one line on this plot. Bennu, like primitive meteorites, appears to be off the terrestrial line. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20240000340/downloads/Franchi%20et%20al%20Bennu%20Oxygen%20LPSC%202024.pdf https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20240000340/downloads/Fr...
pfdietz 2y ago
Small bodies in the early solar system were likely heated by short lived radionuclides, which were injected into the gas cloud that formed the solar system by a nearby supernova explosion. Remnants of the decay of such isotopes have been found in primitive grains in meteorites. This heating would have kept the bodies warm enough for liquid water to exist in their interiors for a periods of perhaps some millions of years. The total volume of these could have been quite large, and offers the interesting possibility that life originated in our Solar System in one of these bodies, not on Earth itself. If so, this could explain why life appeared on Earth so early: if OoL tends to occur in such bodies, it either happens early (before they freeze up) or it doesn't occur at all. This would counter the inference that because life originated early on Earth, OoL must be a high probability event. The presence of phosphate minerals is mildly promising as phosphate is somewhat rare and is biologically essential in nucleic acids, ATP, and some cell membranes.
- lawlessone 2y ago
  Maybe i lack imagination but i don't see how rock formed in a deep ocean could survive relatively unchanged by the kind of impact that would launch it out into space. Your idea fixes that for me.
- gradus_ad 2y ago
  For life to emerge in the span of a few million years within liquid interiors of early solar system bodies, life would need to be a relatively high probability event. I don't think this changes the probability of life calculus vs the traditional life emerging on Earth story.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    If there were enough of these warm, water-bearing bodies, then the probability could be low and still result in early life formation, right?
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      Especially if the "enough" is "enough around any star, anywhere". The a priori probability of it happening around any particular star need not be high. And "anywhere" can be something extremely broad, as in "on any branch of a universal Many Worlds wave function".
prewett 2y ago
> These rocks have retained their original state, having neither melted nor resolidified since their inception How are they able to tell that?
- malfist 2y ago
  I don't pretend to know in this case, but sometimes you can tell by the lattice, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanst%C3%A4tten_pattern https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanst%C3%A4tten_pattern The only way a widmanst pattern forms is by slow cooling of the iron over millions of years. Check out the wiki section on why it can't be reproduced in a lab
  - pyinstallwoes 2y ago
    It is interesting it’s triangular

95 points by kumarm 2y ago

What if the origin of Osiris-Rex (Asteroid) is higher energy debris from a major impact to Earth during the early stages of organic life on the planet. Wasn't one theory (?) for our moon's creation such an impact and then a large mass splitting off to form the moon? I could easily imagine smaller bodies with higher local concentrations of energy being ejected from such an event.

shiroiushi 2y ago
Perhaps it came from Earth when the Chuxhulub asteroid struck? It's really too bad we weren't able to get a sample from the ['Oumuamua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua) asteroid when it flew through the system. It was definitely an extra-solar asteroid, so it would have had material completely unrelated to our own system's formation and history.
- alenrozac 2y ago
  There will be more like that, but we need to get better at identifying them. Just like with exoplanets.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    Not just identifying them, but also being able to catch them in time. They're coming in at solar escape velocities, and going out with same - and the odds of everything being aligned in such a way that we can take several years to do gravity assists are incredibly low.
    - mathsmath 2y ago
      I wonder if a one-way trip with an impactor would be useful. It would at least be easier than a roundtrip journey to and from solar escape velocity. Also, it seems like the space base weapons treaty is being ignored now (https://spacenews.com/russia-vetoes-u-n-resolution-on-nuclear-weapons-in-space/ https://spacenews.com/russia-vetoes-u-n-resolution-on-nuclea..., https://www.npr.org/2024/05/30/nx-s1-4975741/what-to-know-russia-satellite-space-weapon-cosmos-2576 https://www.npr.org/2024/05/30/nx-s1-4975741/what-to-know-ru...). I wonder if there is an opportunity to do some science with space-based lasers and spectroscopy. The energy would be small, but then again we can learn a lot just from the off-gassing created by the sun’s photons as well.
      - pavel_lishin 2y ago
        Oh yeah, I don't think we're anywhere near "sample return" capability for an extra-solar object. I doubt we're even near "impactor" capability, tbh. I think our best bet might be "catch up with something in the Oort somewhere around 2070, if we see something coming a decade ahead of time".
        mathsmath 2y ago
        Never underestimate the ability of humans to throw something really hard ;) I actually think if the object was on the right trajectory and we had enough time, that you could pretty much park an impactor in its path. You could probably do a lot of science based on the spectra of the resulting cloud. I agree that gently landing and return a sample with that much delta V is out of our reach at this point. Maybe with enough shielding, you could park a second sample return vehicle in the path of debris.
    - adolph 2y ago
      > odds of everything being aligned in such a way that we can take several years to do gravity assists are incredibly low. Project Lyra develops concepts for reaching interstellar objects such as 1I / 'Oumuamua and 2I / Borisov with a spacecraft, based on near-term technologies. [0] Several technology options are outlined, ranging from a close solar Oberth Maneuver using chemical propulsion, and the more advanced options of solar and laser sails. [1] 0. https://i4is.org/what-we-do/technical/project-lyra/ https://i4is.org/what-we-do/technical/project-lyra/ 1. https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.03155 https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.03155
      - XorNot 2y ago
        It occurs to me since survivability isn't a problem for an unmanned probe, that a "cold" nuclear thermal engine vehicle could be used as a loitering interceptor: get it a solar orbit, and leave it till you see a target, then accelerate up to extra-solar escape velocity. It solves the disposal problem neatly, since the probe and reactor are both leaving the solar system forever afterwards.
actionfromafar 2y ago
I don’t think there could have been life on Earth before the creation of the moon.
- malux85 2y ago
  Why not? (I don’t know this field)
  - admissionsguy 2y ago
    The Moon forming impact (4.5 Gyr) occurred ~100 million years after Earth's formation. The earliest solid grain comes from another ~100 million years after that (4.4 Gyr). The earliest signs of life (4.1 Gyr) are from ~300 million years after the earliest grain. Does not seem implausible that life could have arisen during the first 100 million years as well. We know very little about that era since the impact liquified the whole surface.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      Wouldn’t the (pre Moon) Earth have been pretty hot after formation and probably no water either?
      - admissionsguy 2y ago
        There's been some research from my alma mater that it might have had water even that early [1]. I haven't seen good data on the estimated temperature during this time (it was hot certainly, the question would be how frequently were there pockets where hyperthermophiles would be able survive). I like this paper's approach [2] - they end up with a small chance of life before the impact. [1] https://archive.is/NZwpJ https://archive.is/NZwpJ [2] https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ast.2005.5.154 https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ast.2005.5.154
    - malux85 2y ago
      Ah ok, didn’t know the moon formed that quickly, thank you for your detailed answer, very interesting :)
wumms 2y ago
From [0]: > Bennu's basic mineralogy and chemical nature would have been established during the first 10 million years of the Solar System's formation [...] > Bennu probably began in the inner asteroid belt as a fragment from a larger body with a diameter of 100 km. Simulations suggest a 70% chance it came from the Polana family and a 30% chance it derived from the Eulalia family. Impactors on boulders of Bennu indicate that Bennu has been in near Earth orbit (separated from the main asteroid belt) for 1–2.5 million years. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu#Origin_and_evolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu#Origin_and_evolut...
pfdietz 2y ago
Rocks on Earth (and the Moon) are distinguished by being on a specific line on the oxygen isotope plot, the SMOW (Standard Mean Ocean Water) line. This may reflect a large, homogenizing event in the early history of the Earth (like a giant impact that formed the Moon). The realization that meteorites come from multiple different parent bodies is that they are distributed widely, not all on one line on this plot. Bennu, like primitive meteorites, appears to be off the terrestrial line. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20240000340/downloads/Franchi%20et%20al%20Bennu%20Oxygen%20LPSC%202024.pdf https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20240000340/downloads/Fr...

pfdietz 2y ago

Small bodies in the early solar system were likely heated by short lived radionuclides, which were injected into the gas cloud that formed the solar system by a nearby supernova explosion. Remnants of the decay of such isotopes have been found in primitive grains in meteorites. This heating would have kept the bodies warm enough for liquid water to exist in their interiors for a periods of perhaps some millions of years. The total volume of these could have been quite large, and offers the interesting possibility that life originated in our Solar System in one of these bodies, not on Earth itself. If so, this could explain why life appeared on Earth so early: if OoL tends to occur in such bodies, it either happens early (before they freeze up) or it doesn't occur at all. This would counter the inference that because life originated early on Earth, OoL must be a high probability event. The presence of phosphate minerals is mildly promising as phosphate is somewhat rare and is biologically essential in nucleic acids, ATP, and some cell membranes.

lawlessone 2y ago
Maybe i lack imagination but i don't see how rock formed in a deep ocean could survive relatively unchanged by the kind of impact that would launch it out into space. Your idea fixes that for me.
gradus_ad 2y ago
For life to emerge in the span of a few million years within liquid interiors of early solar system bodies, life would need to be a relatively high probability event. I don't think this changes the probability of life calculus vs the traditional life emerging on Earth story.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  If there were enough of these warm, water-bearing bodies, then the probability could be low and still result in early life formation, right?
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    Especially if the "enough" is "enough around any star, anywhere". The a priori probability of it happening around any particular star need not be high. And "anywhere" can be something extremely broad, as in "on any branch of a universal Many Worlds wave function".

prewett 2y ago

> These rocks have retained their original state, having neither melted nor resolidified since their inception How are they able to tell that?

malfist 2y ago
I don't pretend to know in this case, but sometimes you can tell by the lattice, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanst%C3%A4tten_pattern https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanst%C3%A4tten_pattern The only way a widmanst pattern forms is by slow cooling of the iron over millions of years. Check out the wiki section on why it can't be reproduced in a lab
- pyinstallwoes 2y ago
  It is interesting it’s triangular