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It's Now Cheaper to Lease a Tesla Model 3 Than a Toyota Camry
- sremani 2y agoInstead of slashing the sale price, incentivizing leases seems to be the go to for now in the EV market. You can only kick the can so much -- 2024 December will be a glorious time to buy vehicles.
- dmoy 2y agoI don't know much about lease structures - why December? Is that unrelated to the lease, and just to get end of year sales numbers up?
- insane_dreamer 2y agoA lot of lease special deals are during the holiday season, so you have a lot of leases ending around that time. (We leased our Tesla last December just before the $7500 tax credit expired.) With the gas savings we're paying about $200/month for our Tesla 3. Our only regret was not leasing the Polestar 2 instead.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoLeases right now are assuming much higher residuals for EV's than for ICE cars which is where much of the difference is coming from. It's hard to say whether that will turn out to be true or not, but if the manufacturer/dealer is willing to take that risk it might be a good idea to take them up on it.
- jcims 2y agoI wonder if that has downstream upward pressure on used prices.
- aynyc 2y agoI know it's leasing, not owning. Given current track record, a minimally maintained 2025 Toyota Camry will probably outlast Musk. Also, a Camry is substantially cheaper to maintain and repair. My local mechanics can probably rebuild a Camry in their sleep with parts readily available.
- leetharris 2y ago> Also, a Camry is substantially cheaper to maintain and repair. Long, long term this should work out in the favor of EVs. They have way less parts and are mechanically much simpler. Right now, however, the market saturation, second hand parts market, repair shop density, etc means it's way more expensive to get an EV fixed. I do wonder when this will flip. Maybe sometime around 2035?
- jvanderbot 2y agoWell, the reduced business case for EV maintenance might actually mean it's harder to get / more specialized? I don't know - markets are weird.
- jerf 2y ago[removed]
- cevn 2y agoMy Model3 is 6 years now, and has lost about 10% range. The car doesn't suddenly become useless either. I expect to keep the same car + battery for at least 20 years without replacing it.
- rconti 2y ago> 2 or 3 battery replacements would be a reasonable guess in that time frame. It absolutely would not. "0 battery replacements" is the correct number in 9 years.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago> 2 or 3 battery replacements would be a reasonable guess in that time frame There are reports of people getting > 600,000 miles out of a Tesla battery. The only vehicle where you're likely to need regular battery replacements on is the Nissan Leaf or it's sister the Renault Zoe.
- jillesvangurp 2y agoIf this were true it would be bad. Luckily it's mostly myth and rumor that doesn't actually line up with reality. The reason leasing cost is so low is that these vehicles and their batteries tend to be decent shape at the end of the lease and still have a good resell value. And they don't cause any issues in between. With modern vehicles, the battery can actually be expected to outlast the vehicle. Many EVs sold 10 years ago still have their original batteries. They are fine and really good value if you can get a second hand one. Battery replacements have mostly proven a myth for EVs. Of course they sometimes happen, especially with older vehicles with primitive battery management (e.g. no cooling). But most EVs ever sold still drive around with their original batteries. Modern battery chemistries are actually even more durable. 3000 charging cycles is pretty standard these days. With a 300 mile range, that's 900000 miles. Most ICE cars don't make it half way that before ending up in the scrap yard. And that's usually after years of expensive repairs, inefficiently running engines, and going through lots of replacement parts. 3000 cycles is just the threshold where you can reasonably expect the battery to still hold > 80% of it's charge. It's not like it will stop working. Maybe 60% is still good enough. Some battery chemistries do way better than 3000 cycles of course. There has been talk of million mile batteries for some years now.
- JCM9 2y agoThe auto market comes in waves. Not that long ago supply was thin and dealers were adding big markups to the cars that were available. Now many dealers are backed into a position to practically beg you to take cars off the lot. Show up with cash and play hardball. It’s a buyers market.
- criddell 2y agoShow up with no cash and a good credit score and you will get an even better deal. There's a lot of profit in financing and you can often pay off the car after 90 days with no penalty.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoThe local dealers don't have any Priuses in stock. Maybe they're just begging to take ICE cars?
- bnycum 2y agoGuess that depends where you are, as that is not the case where I'm at. When we were car shopping recently multiple dealers tried a 20% markup, that was an immediate walk away for me. Inventory still seems thin as well.
- jeromeparadis 2y agoThe comparison isn't exactly fair. I love my Tesla and won't go back but if I'm not mistaken when leasing other brands you can buyback the car at the end of the term which isn't the case when leasing a Tesla.
- jvanderbot 2y agoFor my Mazda I got a fair-market estimate price at the time of lease signing. Tesla doesn't allow you to buy a used Model 3? If so, why is it they won't let you buy your used model 3?
- jakswa 2y agoI think I read they expect to want the cars back to feed their robo taxi dreams.
- joezydeco 2y agoThat may all be a huge swindle. This person seems to be tracking it well: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1379452303317610497.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1379452303317610497.html "The Robotaxi Repo Theory: Tesla overstated S/X sales in 2018 using new lease accounting methods, however this led to large 1Q19 writeoff. To avoid further writeoffs, TSLA declares cars appreciating assets in 2Q19, allowing collateralized borrowing to be considered sales."
- bryanlarsen 2y agoThe cheap leases for EV's from other brands ($250/month for a Hyundai EV6 is a steal) rely on high residuals. So even if you can buy the vehicle back at the end of the lease there's a good chance you won't want to.
- techjamie 2y agoWith the exorbitant cost of changing out the batteries once they crap out, unless you planned to replace the car anyway by that point, it seems like leasing EVs would be the ideal solution. Drive it for the lease period, then when the time comes for the batteries to get replaced, someone else is footing that ~20k bill.
- j7ake 2y agoWhy do people think model 3 should be more expensive than a Camry? They are not even in the same class of vehicles, model 3 is closer to a Toyota Corolla than a Camry.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoBatteries are expensive. And Teslas are expensive. I guess the 3 is a couple generations old, though? Is that why it's cheaper? My friend got a model Y recently
- lghh 2y agoThe 3 just got a refresh a few months ago.
- tiahura 2y agoModel 3 is a Cushman with doors.
- nottorp 2y agoBut it IS more expensive as someone quotes above: When purchasing, the restyled mid-size Camry hybrid is still more affordable than the Model 3, with a base MSRP of $29,804, whereas the Tesla’s entry-level sedan retails for $40,380 (including destination) and doesn’t qualify for the $7,500 federal tax credit. This leasing thing is either accounting acrobatics or high residual value or both.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoIt's both, but who cares? The lease makes it eligible for the $7500 credit due to weird rules, and a high residual makes up for the rest. But it's Tesla taking the risk with that high residual, not you.
- nottorp 2y agoOnly if you don't keep the car at the end of the lease, ofc.
- spacecadet 2y agoMakes sense for essentially overpriced e-waste. Extreme hybrids or GTFO. Im talking gennys or low cc choked to all hell for emissions, hell drop a goldwing engine in it. I want my 2500+ mile per tank utility vehicle, preferably made by a company with real experience... like Honda, or Toyota.
- robertlagrant 2y ago> I want my 2500+ mile per tank utility vehicle, preferably made by a company with real experience... like Honda, or Toyota. What do you mean? I had a Honda and it didn't quite get to 2500 miles per tank, so I don't know how much experience they have doing that.
- vel0city 2y agoWhy stop at 2500 miles? Why not go for 10,000mi per tank? Why not 1,000,000mi per tank? I mean if we're just going to live in fantasy world why have a tank that needs to be refilled at all? Just have infinite energy in the car.
- spacecadet 2y agoYou all laugh, but small engine supported hybrid van with 3 gas tanks can achieve this. Arm chair engineers.
- gymbeaux 2y agoYou can get about 50 MPG in any sedan simply by going 50 MPH on the interstate (tongue in cheek)
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoUnfortunately mileage and emissions trade off with each other. You can get better mpg without a cat iirc Toyota does make a plug-in Prius now
- bilsbie 2y agoI’d recommend doing a Tesla test drive. I did it for giggles and immediately bought one. Im actually a big truck person but I put my identity on pause (so to speak) because I loved the car so much. Everyone who knows me can’t seem to process that I don’t have a truck. (Also the test drive was very low key. Schedule online, Just greet the guy, and he sends you off on your own for a drive. No pressure when you come back either.)
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoSilly question but if you're okay with the low ride height and small cargo capacity of a sedan, what is it you like about trucks?
- askafriend 2y agoSometimes it's just a vibe - doesn't necessarily need to be practical.
- thinkingtoilet 2y agoI live in a rural area. It's 95% insecurity and 5% usefulness. Other countries workers can erect skyscrapers, build houses, and fix the heater just fine without these behemoths. Are American workers so much worse that they need all that extra space? The answer is no. It's about being a REAL man. Are you driving a reasonable car that gets good gas mileage? What are you, a pussy? These things aren't often said, but they are heavily implied. And I live in a relatively liberal rural area.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- evantbyrne 2y agoSounds like confirmation bias. I see people pulling heavy trailers all the time. In fact, I don't think I actually know anyone with a large truck that doesn't haul at least sometimes.
- GiorgioG 2y agoNo CarPlay/Android Auto, No Buy.
- lghh 2y agoI had only used CarPlay once in a rental prior to buying my Tesla. I don't feel like the infotainment thing in my Y is missing anything, but I also don't really know what I am missing out on. What about CarPlay/Android Auto are you concerned about losing? I'm not trying to convince you that you don't need it, I just honestly don't know what I'm missing.
- GiorgioG 2y agoHow about all the apps that work with CarPlay (and have worked for years) that don't exist in Tesla's ecosystem.
- lghh 2y agoSeeing as I have not used CarPlay, I am not sure what those apps are :). Which ones are most useful to you?
- basiccalendar74 2y agoeach of us has apps we like and Tesla only supports a few apps. Ex. I use YouTube music but tesla only supports Spotify and Apple Music.
- r00fus 2y agoMaps/directions are much better than Tesla's. You have voice interface. Music (Apple/Spotify/etc) is much nicer - though they do have Apple Music and Spotify apps, it's easier to just control through my phone. Most people consider their phone their digital life, so having the car entertainment system get out of your way and just integrate the car with the phone seems more natural.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
- josefresco 2y agoWhile true, it's not exactly a "fair" comparison given the federal subsidies involved. > When purchasing, the restyled mid-size Camry hybrid is still more affordable than the Model 3, with a base MSRP of $29,804, whereas the Tesla’s entry-level sedan retails for $40,380 (including destination) and doesn’t qualify for the $7,500 federal tax credit. So as a United States taxpayer I say to Tesla Model 3 owners: You're welcome.
- Maxatar 2y agoIt's not at all fair, because even to this day the total subsidies given the gas powered vehicles is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than those given to electric vehicles. The main difference is that the subsidies and expenditures on gas are given to oil companies while those for electric cars are given directly to the consumer.
- doctorpangloss 2y agoAnother interpretation is that the tax credit is being paid to the manufacturer, who charges a higher price in response to the subsidy.
- Maxatar 2y agoIf a manufacturer would maximize profits by selling a vehicle for X dollars, then they will sell their vehicle for X dollars regardless of a subsidy. Certainly a subsidy makes a product more affordable and hence increases demand for that product, but a subsidy can never allow a manufacturer to charge more for a product than they otherwise would charge. A manufacturer will always charge the price that maximizes their profits and that price doesn't change because of a subsidy.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoIf something is supply constrained then a subsidy allows a price increase. If something is demand constrained then maximum profits occur with a lower price. 2022 was supply constrained. 2024 is not.
- h4ch1 2y agoI am usually the first person to steer away from taking moral standpoints, but I don't support the culture of lithium mining, making children work just so I can have a shiny new car/phone/laptop whose battery will inevitably die in a couple of years effectively becoming junk that's thrown in a landfill. China's near defacto monopoly on lithium batteries is also very concerning. Unfortunately we cannot eliminate it from our lives due to its' ubiquity and cost, but I'd rather not buy an electric car that supports this industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9jscWk2DMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9jscWk2DMg is a good watch on this topic.
- newyankee 2y agoWhat kind of mining do you support ?
- lghh 2y agoThe obvious foil to the lithium industry is the fossil fuel industry. Lithium mining isn't inherently bad, it's only bad in the case where children are being forced to work in the mines. Fossil fuels is an inherent negative due to its outsized environmental impact. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
- standyro 2y agoA few things: - I've had an electric car for 5 years now. My car has been significantly less maintenance than any I've owned. How is that throwing it away in a landfill? If you're concerned about waste, think about the amount of C02 emitted by a single gas car during the 100,000 miles I've driven it already. - The US and Canada already has a nascent lithium mining and exploration industry, a few sites of which are already open or scheduled to soon, such as in Thacker Pass, Nevada or in Quebec. It's not our fault that a huge portion of the US government continues to ignore how valuable rare earth mining is to the next century ~ (Add other things like nuclear to the list too)
- adolph 2y agoWhile the Model 3 may contain more lithium given larger batteries (but might not given different chemistry), the 2025 Camry is only offered as a hybrid (in the US) and also has lithium ion batteries. https://www.toyota.com/camry/features/mpg_other_price/2555/2556/2561 https://www.toyota.com/camry/features/mpg_other_price/2555/2...
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoElon is against heads up displays for some weird reason, and also CarPlay/android auto. Those are important features in 2024.
- AlexandrB 2y ago> Elon is against heads up displays for some weird reason Cost. If you look at some recent changes - like taking out the signal stalks - it reeks of cost optimization. A heads up display in addition to the big iPad would cost more to manufacture.
- altairprime 2y agoIt’s only cheaper if you own a single-family home, or otherwise have the unlikely luxury of access to an electric vehicle charger at your home or place of work. Renters will mostly have to stick with the Camry.
- lylejantzi3rd 2y agoI'd rather have the Camry. Wake me when the model S becomes cheaper to lease than a Toyota Camry. Now we're talking.
- tamimio 2y agoAs it should be, the Camry is a very reliable car that can be with you for 20 years and still be kicking. The only maintenance it usually requires is the basics, like oil and brake pads. That's not the case with Tesla.
- 1234letshaveatw 2y agoIt should be, but not for your stated reason. EVs require even less maintenance- the premium should be the penalty for still burning fossil fuels in 2024
- tamimio 2y ago> EVs require even less maintenance I'm not discussing EV vs. ICE in general, but rather comparing the Camry to Tesla. I believe that maintenance will be cheaper for the Camry, although this will depend on many factors, and I could even be wrong. However, maintenance for Tesla wheels and tires is far more expensive than for those of a Camry. Additionally, the cost of replacing a Tesla battery is more expensive than the combined cost of a Camry's engine and transmission, which is the primary argument against ICE cars. I have never heard of anyone complaining about these issues with a Camry before let alone replacing them. That’s for maintenance-wise, other categories also favor the Camry, such as reliability in extreme cold conditions, the availability of parts, and auto shops for repairs, as well as significantly better privacy, knowing that no Tesla employee is spying on my home while reviewing the car's cameras (1). Personally, I would choose the Camry over a Tesla any day. However, this would not be the case against other cars, such as BMW, where the maintenance costs are far higher. . (1) https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sensitive-images-recorded-by-customer-cars-2023-04-06/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
- r00fus 2y agoReplacing batteries doesn't happen often at all - it's like replacing an engine on an ICE - I haven't had to do anything like that in decades (and I keep my cars for 10+ years). I will give you that parts-availability for EVs are an issue (esp. Teslas = single supplier). Insurance replacement cost and coverage is also probably higher for a higher-end EV. The cost of gas vs. charging can be significant though.
- agent531c 2y agoAs someone who has been new car shopping for the first time recently, its absurd how much some of these cars are. A new prius at the top trim costs ~43k, whereas a lexus actually costs less than 42k for a higher level trim The Prius gets ~60mpg whereas the Lexus gets ~42mpg, so it seems like it would pay for itself a bit more over time if you drove it into the ground, but at that price, it makes no sense to stick with the lower build quality cars.
- kevinventullo 2y agoI imagine maintenance is cheaper on the Prius.
- caladin 2y ago> whereas a lexus actually costs less than 42k for a higher level trim Which one?
- uslic001 2y agoLove my truck but it is not my daily driver. Only drive it when I need to carry stuff in the bed. I have driven several electric cars. They are fun to drive but they don't seem ready for prime time yet. Once charging gets consolidated and more widely available I will look at them again.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y agoIt should be cheaper. Toyota is a much better car.