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Holy cow. The more I read about this disaster, the worse it gets. I really hope that folks get what's coming, but the UK has a double set of laws, one for the

Holy cow. The more I read about this disaster, the worse it gets. I really hope that folks get what's coming, but the UK has a double set of laws, one for the Peers, and one for the Poors. I suspect that the guilty includes a lot of "Peers."

bradybunch 2y ago
Yeah wtf! Isn't a basic tenet of a fair trial to have disclosure of exculpatory evidence and that there should be no private meetings without defence present?
calpaterson 2y ago
It is not correct to ascribe the blame for this issue on a social divide between the public and the establishment/aristocrats/elites/etc. Many of those culpable are pretty ordinary solicitors and technology contractors and not, eg, peers of the realm.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  If/when the accountability starts to become inevitable, that gives them lots of bus-fodder, then. One thing that I have learned (and, no one else seems to have learned), is that Accountability begins and ends at the top. It doesn't matter if it was a "rogue employee." The top head is Responsible. That's (ostensibly) why they get paid the big bucks (or so I'm told, but never shown).
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - h0h0h0h0111 2y ago
    So are you suggesting that every time an employee commits a crime, CEOs should go to jail alongside them? Every time a politician commits an offence the president/prime minister should go to prison? Every time a pupil breaks the law, the principal of the school should go to prison? I'd suggest the reason 'no on else seems to have learned' it is because it's a ridiculous and impractical idea. Should CEOs (etc) be punished if they knowingly aid and abet crime and/or cover it up? Sure, I think most people are on board with that.
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      Executives are not punished even when they knowingly and purposefully perpetuate a crime, just see Boeing.
    - YawningAngel 2y ago
      That's exactly how this works in regulated industries. At UK banks there is criminal liability for senior management for institutional failures. Concretely in this case, if you are bringing a prosecution and you fail to uphold the rights of the defendant, yes I absolutely think you should face criminal liability for that.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
      > So are you suggesting that every time an employee commits a crime, CEOs should go to jail alongside them? Pretty much, yeah. Happens in the military (not always, of course, but more common). The argument I always hear, justifying the enormous pay differential, between the CEO and their staff, is that the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything. In practice, this almost is never the case.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        The main reason for CEO pay is that's what it costs to hire a CEO.
        disgruntledphd2 2y ago
        As determined by Boards filled with other CEOs. I'm pretty sure that SE salaries would be much higher if the only people allowed to determine their salaries were their peers.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Are they filled with other CEOs? I thought boards were filled with different people concerned with different topics. Where do you see that they're filled with other CEOs?
- georgesimon 2y ago
  Indeed, and from the other side, there may not have been any progress at all without the support of Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom.
- n4r9 2y ago
  Arguably this is (yet another) failure of the outsourcing of public services to the lowest bidder.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > Many of those culpable are pretty ordinary You misattribute The whole point of this coverup was to benefit the elites or cover up their failings. We have a dodgy contract, acceptance of a faulty system, and desire to cover up its failings because that would lead to ruined careers at the C level. Misallocation of funds would be investigated, we would have to figure out where did millions of dollars actually disappear to, etc. The middle classes involved, solicitors, etc. are culpable in the sense that they serviced the machine and enabled it, but they not the beneficiaries, they are just cog in the machine. If a specific person would refuse, another would soon take his place. So the real blame lies with those who were comfortable giving outright criminal orders.
piltdownman 2y ago
If you have a chance, the sedately paced but brutal TV adaptation of the scandal is well worth the watch. What they did to a demographic of genial middle-aged village shop proprietors to cover up their own administrative and regulatory failings was nothing short of stochastic terrorism. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20240112-post-office-scandal-how-a-tv-drama-shook-up-britain-in-just-a-week https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20240112-post-office-sca...
- cmiller1 2y ago
  How exactly is this stochastic terrorism?
- calpaterson 2y ago
  There is also a podcast. It's more in-depth than the tv series and has been updated over the years. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j
  - dwighttk 2y ago
    Thanks for the rec
cesaref 2y ago
It's not about peers and poor, it's about immigrants, and racism within the post office - the abhorrent assumption that immigrant families who get contracts as sub postmasters were 'on the make'. It was reported in the lords that >40% of those prosecuted were immigrants, with a high proportion of asian women, which, given the very low level of asian women in the prison population is hard to believe. For reference, hansard has what was discussed in the lords: https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2024-02-19/debates/E6D46CF3-EAB7-489E-ADA8-17F64CF3528F/PostOfficeHorizonScandalRacism https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2024-02-19/debates/E6D46...

bradybunch 2y ago

Yeah wtf! Isn't a basic tenet of a fair trial to have disclosure of exculpatory evidence and that there should be no private meetings without defence present?

calpaterson 2y ago

It is not correct to ascribe the blame for this issue on a social divide between the public and the establishment/aristocrats/elites/etc. Many of those culpable are pretty ordinary solicitors and technology contractors and not, eg, peers of the realm.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
If/when the accountability starts to become inevitable, that gives them lots of bus-fodder, then. One thing that I have learned (and, no one else seems to have learned), is that Accountability begins and ends at the top. It doesn't matter if it was a "rogue employee." The top head is Responsible. That's (ostensibly) why they get paid the big bucks (or so I'm told, but never shown).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- h0h0h0h0111 2y ago
  So are you suggesting that every time an employee commits a crime, CEOs should go to jail alongside them? Every time a politician commits an offence the president/prime minister should go to prison? Every time a pupil breaks the law, the principal of the school should go to prison? I'd suggest the reason 'no on else seems to have learned' it is because it's a ridiculous and impractical idea. Should CEOs (etc) be punished if they knowingly aid and abet crime and/or cover it up? Sure, I think most people are on board with that.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    Executives are not punished even when they knowingly and purposefully perpetuate a crime, just see Boeing.
  - YawningAngel 2y ago
    That's exactly how this works in regulated industries. At UK banks there is criminal liability for senior management for institutional failures. Concretely in this case, if you are bringing a prosecution and you fail to uphold the rights of the defendant, yes I absolutely think you should face criminal liability for that.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
    > So are you suggesting that every time an employee commits a crime, CEOs should go to jail alongside them? Pretty much, yeah. Happens in the military (not always, of course, but more common). The argument I always hear, justifying the enormous pay differential, between the CEO and their staff, is that the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything. In practice, this almost is never the case.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      The main reason for CEO pay is that's what it costs to hire a CEO.
      - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
        As determined by Boards filled with other CEOs. I'm pretty sure that SE salaries would be much higher if the only people allowed to determine their salaries were their peers.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Are they filled with other CEOs? I thought boards were filled with different people concerned with different topics. Where do you see that they're filled with other CEOs?
georgesimon 2y ago
Indeed, and from the other side, there may not have been any progress at all without the support of Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom.
n4r9 2y ago
Arguably this is (yet another) failure of the outsourcing of public services to the lowest bidder.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> Many of those culpable are pretty ordinary You misattribute The whole point of this coverup was to benefit the elites or cover up their failings. We have a dodgy contract, acceptance of a faulty system, and desire to cover up its failings because that would lead to ruined careers at the C level. Misallocation of funds would be investigated, we would have to figure out where did millions of dollars actually disappear to, etc. The middle classes involved, solicitors, etc. are culpable in the sense that they serviced the machine and enabled it, but they not the beneficiaries, they are just cog in the machine. If a specific person would refuse, another would soon take his place. So the real blame lies with those who were comfortable giving outright criminal orders.

piltdownman 2y ago

If you have a chance, the sedately paced but brutal TV adaptation of the scandal is well worth the watch. What they did to a demographic of genial middle-aged village shop proprietors to cover up their own administrative and regulatory failings was nothing short of stochastic terrorism. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20240112-post-office-scandal-how-a-tv-drama-shook-up-britain-in-just-a-week https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20240112-post-office-sca...

cmiller1 2y ago
How exactly is this stochastic terrorism?
calpaterson 2y ago
There is also a podcast. It's more in-depth than the tv series and has been updated over the years. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j
- dwighttk 2y ago
  Thanks for the rec

cesaref 2y ago

It's not about peers and poor, it's about immigrants, and racism within the post office - the abhorrent assumption that immigrant families who get contracts as sub postmasters were 'on the make'. It was reported in the lords that >40% of those prosecuted were immigrants, with a high proportion of asian women, which, given the very low level of asian women in the prison population is hard to believe. For reference, hansard has what was discussed in the lords: https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2024-02-19/debates/E6D46CF3-EAB7-489E-ADA8-17F64CF3528F/PostOfficeHorizonScandalRacism https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2024-02-19/debates/E6D46...