5 ms·

US involvement in South America is arguably the leading cause of the current instabilities in the region. It is not the sole factor but in order to understand t

by tmpz22 2y ago

US involvement in South America is arguably the leading cause of the current instabilities in the region. It is not the sole factor but in order to understand the geopolitics of the region must be taken into account. Knowledge of these US involvements are often not well known in my experience. Consider for example the role of American legislation and consumption in the drug trade and the resulting immigration and criminal crises throughout the continents.

tptacek 2y ago
Bolivia has been independent since 1825 and has since then experienced over 190 coups. Nobody can whitewash US involvement in South and Central America in the 20th century, but the US is not the sole cause of Bolivian instability. Perhaps it makes more sense to blame colonialism, which set up the unstable rural/urban indigenous/white duality that has made the place so fragile.
- bbreier 2y ago
  And how long has it been since the last US backed coup in Bolivia?
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I have no idea. I made a specific argument and was explicit about not immunizing the US for its absolutely wretched involvement with South and Central American politics.
    - jeremyjh 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - teleforce 2y ago
    Silence reigns on the US-backed coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silence-us-backed-coup-evo-morales-bolivia-american-states https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silenc...
    - throw-the-towel 2y ago
      On the other side Áñez was defeated in the election the following year, and Socialist government resumed without much trouble.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I'm repeating myself here, but this 2019 thing is a "coup" in which: * The ousted President had just claimed a victory in an unprecedented and unconstitutional 4th term election, after a judicial decision overruled both the constitution and the results of a failed referendum to amend the constitution to allow Morales to remain in power. * The claimed victory in that election was widely deemed fraudulent, including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks). * Morales fled the country along with much of the constitutional line of succession, leaving the 2nd Vice President of the Senate to assume the presidency in the standard line of succession. * That new president, unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later --- despite COVID. * Those elections restored MAS, the Morales party, to power, and the transfer of power occurred peacefully. * The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since, in an action that has been pretty much universally condemned by the industrialized world. Arce has abused his power, Anez has abused her power, Morales certainly abused his power, none of this is appears new, there are people on HN that are far more authoritative about Bolivian politics than I am, the US with respect to South America sucks ass, but I doubt very much that there is any simple story to tell about what's happening here.
      - deciplex 2y ago
        > unprecedented Not sure what you mean by that. > unconstitutional Not according to their Supreme Court. > including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks) I don't. No one should. > unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later She had no choice as the alternative by that point was a total overthrow of most major institutions of government, in which chaos she and her allies would have fared even worse than they did. > The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since As they should have. She was responsible for many deaths. > pretty much universally condemned Not universally.
- aredox 2y ago
  Exactly. And remember that each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country, every time. (And one could argue that in many cases, if the US didn't do it, the USSR would have - but I recognize with honesty that does not apply to 100% of the cases, Chile especially). Maybe it is time for those countries to take a good hard look at themselves.
  - deciplex 2y ago
    > each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country Really? You mean every time we've tried to overthrow a foreign government we've been able to find locals who were willing to give us a hand if they could personally benefit from the arrangement? That's amazing! What are the odds?
    - aredox 2y ago
      If in a country, one can easily find enough people in positions of authority ready to backstab the whole country, then "foreign interference" is only half the problem...
      - deciplex 2y ago
        but you agree it is 50% of the problem
- defrost 2y ago
  From a geopolitical perspective the single greatest reason for outside meddling in Bolivia today is control (indirect works fine) of the largest lithium reserves on the planet, currently being tussled over by both China and the USofA with some rumours of Saudi investment interests. These things typically play out with layered shell companies, private mercanary contractors, and local bribes - Eric Prince (USofA) was recently taking Saudi pay to "secure" through bribes, corrupt judges, political allies, and occassional force traditional lands in Zambia for food security, his group is now providing security for Chinese transport of copper from there to Angola. Such is the world we live. It is a certainty that interested parties (corporations, governments) are seeking to control Bolivian lithium and equally certain that their tracks well be fairly well covered (but not for ever). On the resources; see: https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithium-bolivia-crossroads https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithiu... https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-lithium-industry-creating-new-problems-for-local-communities/ https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-l...
  - tptacek 2y ago
    The largest lithium deposit in the world is probably in the US.
    - defrost 2y ago
      "probably" .. that's not JORC now, is it?
MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
[flagged]
jojobas 2y ago
Yeah, if only the US stayed out of it and let the likes of Allende and Chavez drive all of South America into famine.

by tmpz22 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

Bolivia has been independent since 1825 and has since then experienced over 190 coups. Nobody can whitewash US involvement in South and Central America in the 20th century, but the US is not the sole cause of Bolivian instability. Perhaps it makes more sense to blame colonialism, which set up the unstable rural/urban indigenous/white duality that has made the place so fragile.

bbreier 2y ago
And how long has it been since the last US backed coup in Bolivia?
- tptacek 2y ago
  I have no idea. I made a specific argument and was explicit about not immunizing the US for its absolutely wretched involvement with South and Central American politics.
  - jeremyjh 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- teleforce 2y ago
  Silence reigns on the US-backed coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silence-us-backed-coup-evo-morales-bolivia-american-states https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silenc...
  - throw-the-towel 2y ago
    On the other side Áñez was defeated in the election the following year, and Socialist government resumed without much trouble.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I'm repeating myself here, but this 2019 thing is a "coup" in which: * The ousted President had just claimed a victory in an unprecedented and unconstitutional 4th term election, after a judicial decision overruled both the constitution and the results of a failed referendum to amend the constitution to allow Morales to remain in power. * The claimed victory in that election was widely deemed fraudulent, including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks). * Morales fled the country along with much of the constitutional line of succession, leaving the 2nd Vice President of the Senate to assume the presidency in the standard line of succession. * That new president, unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later --- despite COVID. * Those elections restored MAS, the Morales party, to power, and the transfer of power occurred peacefully. * The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since, in an action that has been pretty much universally condemned by the industrialized world. Arce has abused his power, Anez has abused her power, Morales certainly abused his power, none of this is appears new, there are people on HN that are far more authoritative about Bolivian politics than I am, the US with respect to South America sucks ass, but I doubt very much that there is any simple story to tell about what's happening here.
    - deciplex 2y ago
      > unprecedented Not sure what you mean by that. > unconstitutional Not according to their Supreme Court. > including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks) I don't. No one should. > unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later She had no choice as the alternative by that point was a total overthrow of most major institutions of government, in which chaos she and her allies would have fared even worse than they did. > The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since As they should have. She was responsible for many deaths. > pretty much universally condemned Not universally.
aredox 2y ago
Exactly. And remember that each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country, every time. (And one could argue that in many cases, if the US didn't do it, the USSR would have - but I recognize with honesty that does not apply to 100% of the cases, Chile especially). Maybe it is time for those countries to take a good hard look at themselves.
- deciplex 2y ago
  > each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country Really? You mean every time we've tried to overthrow a foreign government we've been able to find locals who were willing to give us a hand if they could personally benefit from the arrangement? That's amazing! What are the odds?
  - aredox 2y ago
    If in a country, one can easily find enough people in positions of authority ready to backstab the whole country, then "foreign interference" is only half the problem...
    - deciplex 2y ago
      but you agree it is 50% of the problem
defrost 2y ago
From a geopolitical perspective the single greatest reason for outside meddling in Bolivia today is control (indirect works fine) of the largest lithium reserves on the planet, currently being tussled over by both China and the USofA with some rumours of Saudi investment interests. These things typically play out with layered shell companies, private mercanary contractors, and local bribes - Eric Prince (USofA) was recently taking Saudi pay to "secure" through bribes, corrupt judges, political allies, and occassional force traditional lands in Zambia for food security, his group is now providing security for Chinese transport of copper from there to Angola. Such is the world we live. It is a certainty that interested parties (corporations, governments) are seeking to control Bolivian lithium and equally certain that their tracks well be fairly well covered (but not for ever). On the resources; see: https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithium-bolivia-crossroads https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithiu... https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-lithium-industry-creating-new-problems-for-local-communities/ https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-l...
- tptacek 2y ago
  The largest lithium deposit in the world is probably in the US.
  - defrost 2y ago
    "probably" .. that's not JORC now, is it?

MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago

[flagged]

jojobas 2y ago

Yeah, if only the US stayed out of it and let the likes of Allende and Chavez drive all of South America into famine.