4 ms·

What does this have to do with the article?

by strstr 2y ago

tmpz22 2y ago
US involvement in South America is arguably the leading cause of the current instabilities in the region. It is not the sole factor but in order to understand the geopolitics of the region must be taken into account. Knowledge of these US involvements are often not well known in my experience. Consider for example the role of American legislation and consumption in the drug trade and the resulting immigration and criminal crises throughout the continents.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Bolivia has been independent since 1825 and has since then experienced over 190 coups. Nobody can whitewash US involvement in South and Central America in the 20th century, but the US is not the sole cause of Bolivian instability. Perhaps it makes more sense to blame colonialism, which set up the unstable rural/urban indigenous/white duality that has made the place so fragile.
  - bbreier 2y ago
    And how long has it been since the last US backed coup in Bolivia?
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I have no idea. I made a specific argument and was explicit about not immunizing the US for its absolutely wretched involvement with South and Central American politics.
      - jeremyjh 2y ago
        [flagged]
        refulgentis 2y ago
        "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - teleforce 2y ago
      Silence reigns on the US-backed coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silence-us-backed-coup-evo-morales-bolivia-american-states https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silenc...
      - throw-the-towel 2y ago
        On the other side Áñez was defeated in the election the following year, and Socialist government resumed without much trouble.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        I'm repeating myself here, but this 2019 thing is a "coup" in which: * The ousted President had just claimed a victory in an unprecedented and unconstitutional 4th term election, after a judicial decision overruled both the constitution and the results of a failed referendum to amend the constitution to allow Morales to remain in power. * The claimed victory in that election was widely deemed fraudulent, including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks). * Morales fled the country along with much of the constitutional line of succession, leaving the 2nd Vice President of the Senate to assume the presidency in the standard line of succession. * That new president, unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later --- despite COVID. * Those elections restored MAS, the Morales party, to power, and the transfer of power occurred peacefully. * The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since, in an action that has been pretty much universally condemned by the industrialized world. Arce has abused his power, Anez has abused her power, Morales certainly abused his power, none of this is appears new, there are people on HN that are far more authoritative about Bolivian politics than I am, the US with respect to South America sucks ass, but I doubt very much that there is any simple story to tell about what's happening here.
        deciplex 2y ago
        > unprecedented Not sure what you mean by that. > unconstitutional Not according to their Supreme Court. > including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks) I don't. No one should. > unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later She had no choice as the alternative by that point was a total overthrow of most major institutions of government, in which chaos she and her allies would have fared even worse than they did. > The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since As they should have. She was responsible for many deaths. > pretty much universally condemned Not universally.
  - aredox 2y ago
    Exactly. And remember that each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country, every time. (And one could argue that in many cases, if the US didn't do it, the USSR would have - but I recognize with honesty that does not apply to 100% of the cases, Chile especially). Maybe it is time for those countries to take a good hard look at themselves.
    - deciplex 2y ago
      > each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country Really? You mean every time we've tried to overthrow a foreign government we've been able to find locals who were willing to give us a hand if they could personally benefit from the arrangement? That's amazing! What are the odds?
      - aredox 2y ago
        If in a country, one can easily find enough people in positions of authority ready to backstab the whole country, then "foreign interference" is only half the problem...
        deciplex 2y ago
        but you agree it is 50% of the problem
  - defrost 2y ago
    From a geopolitical perspective the single greatest reason for outside meddling in Bolivia today is control (indirect works fine) of the largest lithium reserves on the planet, currently being tussled over by both China and the USofA with some rumours of Saudi investment interests. These things typically play out with layered shell companies, private mercanary contractors, and local bribes - Eric Prince (USofA) was recently taking Saudi pay to "secure" through bribes, corrupt judges, political allies, and occassional force traditional lands in Zambia for food security, his group is now providing security for Chinese transport of copper from there to Angola. Such is the world we live. It is a certainty that interested parties (corporations, governments) are seeking to control Bolivian lithium and equally certain that their tracks well be fairly well covered (but not for ever). On the resources; see: https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithium-bolivia-crossroads https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithiu... https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-lithium-industry-creating-new-problems-for-local-communities/ https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-l...
    - tptacek 2y ago
      The largest lithium deposit in the world is probably in the US.
      - defrost 2y ago
        "probably" .. that's not JORC now, is it?
- MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
  [flagged]
- jojobas 2y ago
  Yeah, if only the US stayed out of it and let the likes of Allende and Chavez drive all of South America into famine.
kachapopopow 2y ago
because it's probably backed by the US edit: this was supposed to be a reply
- jeremyjh 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    you’re asking people to prove a negative for reasons that are irrelevant and inconsequential, aside from your hardon for pointing out that the US coup’d some folks
    - busterarm 2y ago
      Hey, a whole class of "political commentators" like Hasanabi have made whole careers off reframing every possible conversation around the braindead regurgitation of "America bad". And internet echo chambers are so bad that it substitutes for thoughtful commentary.
      - yieldcrv 2y ago
        America opens itself to that criticism by calling itself a good, moral leader. As if its constituents and allies need to believe that. So some people are gullible and eventually feel lied to. But I think the US could operate more at face value and then the same things occur without the cognitive dissonance. It would probably be far easier to support too.
  - orochimaaru 2y ago
    I think you require proof of culpability, not the other way around. This is like being asked to prove you’re not guilty.
    - deciplex 2y ago
      No, it's not, because this isn't a court of law. You're allowed to read between the lines here and use common sense. You don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Given the history of the US on matters such as this, it would be unusual if we weren't involved. That's really all that needs to be said.
bimguy 2y ago
You think referencing other coups is somehow unrelated?
LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
According to wikipedia maybe: Government of Luis Arce: 2020 - present On 8 November 2020, Luis Arce was sworn in as President of Bolivia alongside his Vice President David Choquehuanca.[103] In February 2021, the Arce government returned an amount of around $351 million to the IMF. This comprised a loan of $327 million taken out by the interim government in April 2020 and interest of around $24 million. The government said it returned the loan to protect Bolivia's economic sovereignty and because the conditions attached to the loan were unacceptable.[95]
deciplex 2y ago
This coup attempt is, without any doubt, a project of the US State Department and intelligence community. You don't need a smoking gun here, or put another way the smoking gun is our posture toward Latin America for the last 100+ years. The notion that we are not involved somehow is totally ludicrous. That doesn't have to mean that Tony Blinken (or Joe Biden) personally signed off on this, but we are involved. To suppose otherwise is to be naive to the point of stupidity.
zublog 2y ago
Obviously this is speculation (and I do not think that this is a U.S. coup), but the U.S. is quite upset about being left out in the Lithium race: https://www.dw.com/en/russia-china-ahead-in-race-for-bolivias-lithium/a-67843534 https://www.dw.com/en/russia-china-ahead-in-race-for-bolivia... https://www.bnamericas.com/en/features/uranium-one-expected-to-start-operations-at-bolivia-lithium-plant-in-2025 https://www.bnamericas.com/en/features/uranium-one-expected-... But it is a complex situation with indigenous people trying to block Lithium extraction altogether so make of it what you will.

What does this have to do with the article?

by strstr 2y ago

What does this have to do with the article?

US involvement in South America is arguably the leading cause of the current instabilities in the region. It is not the sole factor but in order to understand the geopolitics of the region must be taken into account. Knowledge of these US involvements are often not well known in my experience. Consider for example the role of American legislation and consumption in the drug trade and the resulting immigration and criminal crises throughout the continents.

tptacek 2y ago
Bolivia has been independent since 1825 and has since then experienced over 190 coups. Nobody can whitewash US involvement in South and Central America in the 20th century, but the US is not the sole cause of Bolivian instability. Perhaps it makes more sense to blame colonialism, which set up the unstable rural/urban indigenous/white duality that has made the place so fragile.
- bbreier 2y ago
  And how long has it been since the last US backed coup in Bolivia?
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I have no idea. I made a specific argument and was explicit about not immunizing the US for its absolutely wretched involvement with South and Central American politics.
    - jeremyjh 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - teleforce 2y ago
    Silence reigns on the US-backed coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silence-us-backed-coup-evo-morales-bolivia-american-states https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/18/silenc...
    - throw-the-towel 2y ago
      On the other side Áñez was defeated in the election the following year, and Socialist government resumed without much trouble.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I'm repeating myself here, but this 2019 thing is a "coup" in which: * The ousted President had just claimed a victory in an unprecedented and unconstitutional 4th term election, after a judicial decision overruled both the constitution and the results of a failed referendum to amend the constitution to allow Morales to remain in power. * The claimed victory in that election was widely deemed fraudulent, including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks). * Morales fled the country along with much of the constitutional line of succession, leaving the 2nd Vice President of the Senate to assume the presidency in the standard line of succession. * That new president, unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later --- despite COVID. * Those elections restored MAS, the Morales party, to power, and the transfer of power occurred peacefully. * The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since, in an action that has been pretty much universally condemned by the industrialized world. Arce has abused his power, Anez has abused her power, Morales certainly abused his power, none of this is appears new, there are people on HN that are far more authoritative about Bolivian politics than I am, the US with respect to South America sucks ass, but I doubt very much that there is any simple story to tell about what's happening here.
      - deciplex 2y ago
        > unprecedented Not sure what you mean by that. > unconstitutional Not according to their Supreme Court. > including by OAS (if you care what OAS thinks) I don't. No one should. > unapologetic right-winger Jeanine Anez, promised prompt new elections and then delivered them less than a year later She had no choice as the alternative by that point was a total overthrow of most major institutions of government, in which chaos she and her allies would have fared even worse than they did. > The new MAS government immediately had Jeanine Anez arrested for the "coup" in 2019, and has imprisoned her ever since As they should have. She was responsible for many deaths. > pretty much universally condemned Not universally.
- aredox 2y ago
  Exactly. And remember that each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country, every time. (And one could argue that in many cases, if the US didn't do it, the USSR would have - but I recognize with honesty that does not apply to 100% of the cases, Chile especially). Maybe it is time for those countries to take a good hard look at themselves.
  - deciplex 2y ago
    > each coup "masterminded" by the USA has found more than willing accomplices in each country Really? You mean every time we've tried to overthrow a foreign government we've been able to find locals who were willing to give us a hand if they could personally benefit from the arrangement? That's amazing! What are the odds?
    - aredox 2y ago
      If in a country, one can easily find enough people in positions of authority ready to backstab the whole country, then "foreign interference" is only half the problem...
      - deciplex 2y ago
        but you agree it is 50% of the problem
- defrost 2y ago
  From a geopolitical perspective the single greatest reason for outside meddling in Bolivia today is control (indirect works fine) of the largest lithium reserves on the planet, currently being tussled over by both China and the USofA with some rumours of Saudi investment interests. These things typically play out with layered shell companies, private mercanary contractors, and local bribes - Eric Prince (USofA) was recently taking Saudi pay to "secure" through bribes, corrupt judges, political allies, and occassional force traditional lands in Zambia for food security, his group is now providing security for Chinese transport of copper from there to Angola. Such is the world we live. It is a certainty that interested parties (corporations, governments) are seeking to control Bolivian lithium and equally certain that their tracks well be fairly well covered (but not for ever). On the resources; see: https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithium-bolivia-crossroads https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/12/global-rush-lithiu... https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-lithium-industry-creating-new-problems-for-local-communities/ https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/rapid-growth-of-bolivias-l...
  - tptacek 2y ago
    The largest lithium deposit in the world is probably in the US.
    - defrost 2y ago
      "probably" .. that's not JORC now, is it?
MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
[flagged]
jojobas 2y ago
Yeah, if only the US stayed out of it and let the likes of Allende and Chavez drive all of South America into famine.

kachapopopow 2y ago

because it's probably backed by the US edit: this was supposed to be a reply

jeremyjh 2y ago
[flagged]
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  you’re asking people to prove a negative for reasons that are irrelevant and inconsequential, aside from your hardon for pointing out that the US coup’d some folks
  - busterarm 2y ago
    Hey, a whole class of "political commentators" like Hasanabi have made whole careers off reframing every possible conversation around the braindead regurgitation of "America bad". And internet echo chambers are so bad that it substitutes for thoughtful commentary.
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      America opens itself to that criticism by calling itself a good, moral leader. As if its constituents and allies need to believe that. So some people are gullible and eventually feel lied to. But I think the US could operate more at face value and then the same things occur without the cognitive dissonance. It would probably be far easier to support too.
- orochimaaru 2y ago
  I think you require proof of culpability, not the other way around. This is like being asked to prove you’re not guilty.
  - deciplex 2y ago
    No, it's not, because this isn't a court of law. You're allowed to read between the lines here and use common sense. You don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Given the history of the US on matters such as this, it would be unusual if we weren't involved. That's really all that needs to be said.

bimguy 2y ago

You think referencing other coups is somehow unrelated?

LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago

According to wikipedia maybe: Government of Luis Arce: 2020 - present On 8 November 2020, Luis Arce was sworn in as President of Bolivia alongside his Vice President David Choquehuanca.[103] In February 2021, the Arce government returned an amount of around $351 million to the IMF. This comprised a loan of $327 million taken out by the interim government in April 2020 and interest of around $24 million. The government said it returned the loan to protect Bolivia's economic sovereignty and because the conditions attached to the loan were unacceptable.[95]

deciplex 2y ago

This coup attempt is, without any doubt, a project of the US State Department and intelligence community. You don't need a smoking gun here, or put another way the smoking gun is our posture toward Latin America for the last 100+ years. The notion that we are not involved somehow is totally ludicrous. That doesn't have to mean that Tony Blinken (or Joe Biden) personally signed off on this, but we are involved. To suppose otherwise is to be naive to the point of stupidity.

zublog 2y ago

Obviously this is speculation (and I do not think that this is a U.S. coup), but the U.S. is quite upset about being left out in the Lithium race: https://www.dw.com/en/russia-china-ahead-in-race-for-bolivias-lithium/a-67843534 https://www.dw.com/en/russia-china-ahead-in-race-for-bolivia... https://www.bnamericas.com/en/features/uranium-one-expected-to-start-operations-at-bolivia-lithium-plant-in-2025 https://www.bnamericas.com/en/features/uranium-one-expected-... But it is a complex situation with indigenous people trying to block Lithium extraction altogether so make of it what you will.