10 ms·
Next gen 3D metal printing
- smitty1e 2y ago> The electrochemical approach allows for micron-scale feature resolution, complex internal features, high-purity materials, and rapid scalability to support mass manufacturing. That just does not sound cheap. One envisions a cost-distributed 3D effort, with this used for certain critical parts.
- ben_w 2y agoI'd assume slow rather than expensive; if it's similar to other electroplating, think in terms of nm/s in the z-axis, 96,485 Amp-seconds* per mole of whatever metal you're putting down at a small (material dependent) number of volts of potential, so I'd guess OOM €10/kg process plus whatever the material cost is in the form of an electrolyte. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_constant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_constant
- impossiblefork 2y agoI actually think it does. I'm imagining a human-sized tank, continuously growing things by electroplating, slowly, slowly, but eventually making something quite big. I find this concept very appealing. I don't quite understand how it though, because I have view of electroplating as something which is very different from this precise and presumably at least somewhat fast process.
- kube-system 2y agoIt sounds a lot like semiconductor manufacturing, except electrochemical instead of photochemical.
- cjbgkagh 2y agoIt’ll be like a resin printer, the hard part is the anode array which isn’t that hard, it seems that TFT screen manufacturers can make what’s needed and TFTs screens are really cheap.
- ben_w 2y agoGood to see! This looks like something I toyed with in 2016, but (as you may expect from my lack of relevant experience and qualifications) all I found were what Edison called "ways to not make a lightbulb". The: > microelectrode array printhead in particular is what I wanted to experiment with, because something like this clearly allows parallelisation of the build process in much the same way photopolymerisation is faster than FDM.
- petermcneeley 2y agoI tried out the multi electrode approach about 15 years ago. My work was based on the original work of John D. Madden https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf I can find my paper and post it but keep in mind it was a "undergraduate thesis" and something I spent only a very finite amount of time on.
- jimbooonooo 2y agoYah, please post it! Can you speak to the minimum resolution and wear rate/lifetime with single electrode approaches?
- petermcneeley 2y agoI would imagine resolution mostly comes down size of electrode and how close you can get that to the substrate and grow the deposit in a controlled fashion. Mine were 25um. As for wearing out the electrode; madden's paper probably has some information. I would expect the wear to be similar to the oxygen side of electrolysis (water). https://darkcephas.github.io/MELED_paper/MELED_paper.pdf https://darkcephas.github.io/MELED_paper/MELED_paper.pdf
- ben_w 2y agoThanks, interesting read.
- kragen 2y ago
- kbenson 2y agoMy understanding is that most current metal 3d printing yields items with significantly worse properties with respect to shear forces, because of how the molecules align compared to when it's melted together as a whole and cooled (or something like that, I can't find the research paper someone linked to me in the past here regarding that). Do we know if this is better with respect to that?
- alfalfasprout 2y agoIn theory can't the final object be tempered/annealed to achieve the desired properties?
- metal_am 2y agoTexture (the statistical arrangement of all the crystal lattice arrangements that make up a metal) can play a role on mechanical properties, but current metal AM is more than able to meet material standards. It's good to be careful with blanket statements because the most accurate answer is usually "it depends."
- prrrywinkle 2y ago[dead]
- WheatMillington 2y agoI agree we should avoid blanket statements, which is why your statement "current metal AM is more than able to meet material standards" is problematic. What standards? There is no generic "material standards" for all materials, and 3d metal printing is definitely inferior to MOST other manufacturing methods in MOST circumstances, in terms of mechanical properties.
- Iulioh 2y agoI mean, we 3d print aerospace engine parts, is this "common sense" logic really true?
- KennyBlanken 2y agoThe headline (and thusfar only, it seems) application is a 3d metal printed waterblock with Asetek (the infamous AIO patent trolls, incidentally), with some hooplah about "quieter pumps" and better performance. Arctic makes a line of AIO coolers which are among the lowest-cost, yet have industry-leading performance and can dissipate hundreds of watts with ease. This just doesn't seem like an area that needs to be optimized. I could see certain applications like cooling high power RF stuff and lasers...but if this was the best they could do for their headline application, I'm a bit skeptical. Either they're doing a poor job of commercializing it, it's got drawbacks that are deal-killers for a lot of industries, or something else...
- tombert 2y agoI saw a video doing something like awhile ago [1], and I thought the idea of using electroplating made sense, but I know absolutely nothing about chemical engineering or material science. It's interesting to see this idea in action, though with my limited experience with electroplating it seems like it'd be absurdly slow. [1] https://youtu.be/W1d36wbx_yg https://youtu.be/W1d36wbx_yg
- jagged-chisel 2y agoThis is brilliant. So many problems solved. This person is awesome!
- bombela 2y agoI managed 1μm/minute when electroplating PCBs at home. Faster and it grows a sponge of copper (entrapped gas I assume). I would like to know how they did it.
- reaperman 2y agoSeems like even in a vacuum it could still make a metal foam, but perhaps would help minimize defects?
- Hextinium 2y agoThat's just PVD or CVD, which does massively decrease defects but being a gaseous process slows down growth considerably.
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoParallelization? As in you grow layers upon layers in parallel, align them and chemically bond them?
- dpain 2y agoYou're right - electroplating isn't traditionally very fast. Much of the system has been engineered to drive a build speed that's relevant for mass manufacturing while maintaining material properties (think 100-1000x faster than typical electroplating)
- justinclift 2y agoLooks like there was an article about it on ServeTheHome last year too: https://www.servethehome.com/next-gen-copper-cold-plates-so-advanced-they-need-to-be-3d-printed-from-fabric8labs/ https://www.servethehome.com/next-gen-copper-cold-plates-so-...
- matmatmatmat 2y agoRoselle St (where Fabric8 Labs has their office) is the most innovative street in San Diego. I don't know what it is about that particular street, but a ton of great companies have come out of there.
- midnightclubbed 2y agoNot a street I was aware of, but it's located between the Qualcomm and General Atomics campuses and a stones throw from UCSD. Also has great freeway and rail (commuter) access and modern research focussed buildings for lease.
- bionhoward 2y agoLooks amazing! Random extremely minor typo spotted, “worforce” instead of “workforce” in the 2nd entry of the “in the press” section.
- la64710 2y agoThere was recently report of an Indian rocket engine that was 3D printed.
- AbrahamParangi 2y agoAs someone who's built/designed multiple metal 3D printers before, this actually looks really cool. Every metal 3D printer requires high temperatures, inert and reducing gasses to prevent oxidation, and most of them require powdered metal, whether for something like DMLS or powder bed technologies. The accuracy is also impressive. One of the ancillary ideas that I and a few others came up with in exploring binder jetting was 3D organ printing because the feature size is quite small. I wonder if there's a world where you could use an analogous process on a solution of individual cells.
- dpain 2y agoYes! One of the major benefits from not using a powdered metal feedstock is that minimum feature size is no longer limited by powder size, and instead is determined by our electrode "pixel" size which is 33 microns today and will get even smaller over time. The room temperature deposition process also means we can print directly onto substrates like PCBs, ceramics or Silicon wafers to enable some very unique functionality.
- AbrahamParangi 2y agovery cool that you don’t need to worry about thermal effects, nice work!
- glitchinc 2y agoWhat distinguishes the offerings from Fabric8Labs from the offerings from long-established companies like Desktop Metal[1] that are capable of printing parts using a wide range of materials including carbon steel, stainless steel, titanium, and tungsten? The tungsten capability really throws me for a loop. As someone who TIG welds in my spare time, I can’t imagine having a machine in my shop that could make electrodes. The amount of energy required must be … a lot. [1] https://www.desktopmetal.com/ https://www.desktopmetal.com/
- tbenst 2y agoFabric8Labs can print 100% density, whereas Desktop Metal is highly porous. Also Fabric8Labs can directly print pure copper, which has historically been very difficult. The process is also more energy efficient and better suited for small complex parts. Desktop Metal serves a different market in terms of material and size. disclaimer: I'm a GP at Asimov Ventures and invested in Fabric8labs' pre-seed round.
- FrostKiwi 2y agoSuper interesting approach. > "directly print pure copper, which has historically been very difficult" SLM [1] has been able to 3D print Copper with precision down to the size of a mechanical pencil's lead for a long time already. In what way is ECAM better? Is it more precision + no need to handle powder + no need for laser source and containment - ECAM being slower, or am I missing some crucial feature? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_melting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_melting
- tbenst 2y agoThe high thermal conductivity of copper makes it difficult to maintain needed temperatures during SLM. Also, copper is prone to oxidation at high temperatures, further complicating (thermal based) laser melting 3D printing techniques. It’s more typical to print copper alloys than pure copper.
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- jimbooonooo 2y agoRelevant patent here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US10724146B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US10724146B1/en Edit: I wonder what compensation for anode consumption looks like. Model based? I assume in-situ measurement/process control is hard.
- metadat 2y agoFancy 3D-printed nano-pipe heatsinks here we come. Sign me up.
- kragen 2y agoi wrote some notes about this technique in 02016 https://dercuano.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printing.html https://dercuano.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printi... and published it in 02019; possibly people who find the process interesting will find it appealing. it isn't original with me, though; another guy here in argentina built a working 3-d printer with this approach, i think before i wrote that, and petermcneeley points out that successful application of the technique on the nanoscale goes back to at least 01996 https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf (a paper i'd seen many years ago but forgotten) and that he himself had gotten it to work about 15 years ago https://darkcephas.github.io/MELED_paper/MELED_paper.pdf https://darkcephas.github.io/MELED_paper/MELED_paper.pdf derctuo and dernocua also contain some explorations of it derctuo contains my notes from 02020, published in 02020, including three that discuss this process: https://derctuo.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printing.html https://derctuo.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printin... https://derctuo.github.io/notes/foam-electro-etching.html https://derctuo.github.io/notes/foam-electro-etching.html https://derctuo.github.io/notes/cyclic-fabrication-systems.html#addtoc_11 https://derctuo.github.io/notes/cyclic-fabrication-systems.h... in dernocua, my notes from 02021, published in 02021, https://dernocua.github.io/notes/fresnel-mirror-electropolishing.html https://dernocua.github.io/notes/fresnel-mirror-electropolis... discusses using it to make optics, https://dernocua.github.io/notes/freezer-seacrete.html https://dernocua.github.io/notes/freezer-seacrete.html discusses using it to deposit rock rather than metal (much faster), https://dernocua.github.io/notes/layers-plus-electroforming.html https://dernocua.github.io/notes/layers-plus-electroforming.... discusses a process hybridized with lamination of 2-D cut layers to get the rough form, and https://dernocua.github.io/notes/electrolytic-berlinite.html https://dernocua.github.io/notes/electrolytic-berlinite.html discusses the possibility of using it to print refractory chemically bonded ceramics
- dpain 2y agoCTO of Fabric8 here - happy to answer any questions you may have about the technology or company. As you can tell we've got a process that's quite different than other metal AM techniques with some very unique benefits that we're excited to share!
- Nathanael_M 2y agoWhere does this fall on the hazardous/toxicity scale? What kind of off-gassing/risks are there, especially compared to existing high resolution powder based systems? Disclaimer: I don’t know much about this field, this may be a dumb question.
- dpain 2y agoMuch safer than existing powder-based systems. The feedstock is effectively water based so none of the flammability risks of metal powder. No special gases required, no high powered lasers or thermal processing sytems. That being said it still is an industrial process and requires responsible handling of the feedstock and equipment to ensure safety to personnel and the environment.
- Nathanael_M 2y agoThanks for the response!
- tastyfreeze 2y agoMetallic ionic solutions are usually strong acids. They are made by dissolving metal in sulfuric or nitric acids. Looks like they are using copper sulfate as the electrolyte. After the copper is deposited you are left with sulfuric acid.
- cpitman 2y agoYour website mentions printing on pcbs, do you expect this to be a competitive option for pcb prototyping or manufacture?
- maufl 2y agoThis looks interesting for lab-on-a-chip use cases.
- RobotToaster 2y agoSeems to have zero details about... anything?
- naasking 2y agoI was interested in electrochemical 3D printing awhile back: 1. Deposition can be very precise (they say micron-level resolution here), but it's typically slow for a naive approach. That's not necessarily a problem if you need that precision. They say their approach is fast, probably by using some kind of array of nozzles (think an inkjet printer head). 2. You can also selectively run the process in reverse, so an electrochemical printer is actually a combo additive and subtractive manufacturing machine. 3. Because it's electrochemistry, I believe such a 3D printer is mostly restricted to depositing pure elemental metals and only a few alloys. This severely restricts your material selections. Very cool to see this commercialized though, I'm curious how far they can take it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- throwup238 2y ago> by using some kind of array of nozzles (think an inkjet printer head). By bet is on electrospray ionization nozzles. It's a well understood technique thanks to mass spectrometers, it's just a matter of time before someone miniaturizes them and creates a way to control the spray pattern.
- anamax 2y agoThis seems like the inverse of EDM.