14 ms·

Well, ok, hotels are more expensive now, but are houses and long term rentals any cheaper? Was the ban successful at improving housing affordability for the peo

Well, ok, hotels are more expensive now, but are houses and long term rentals any cheaper? Was the ban successful at improving housing affordability for the people who live there? The article doesn't seem to discuss that at all.

ranger_danger 2y ago
I think you already know the answers to all of those.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  I think you suspect the answers to all of those. We'd like to know.
- solardev 2y ago
  What? Why would I? I don't live there but genuinely want to know. It's a thing that affects many other desirable cities too, and short term housing bans are discussed often. I'd like to know how well it does or doesn't work and what variables contribute to it.
  - auntienomen 2y ago
    The problem is that no one has the courage to run a controlled trial to isolate the effect of banning short term rentals. Best you'll get is some natural experiments where you pretend you can compare NYC and Hoboken.
powersjcb 2y ago
They certainly made it impossible to plan a trip to NYC with more than 2 people if that's what they were aiming for. I had previously been planning yearly trips to visit NYC with friends. For the last 3 years with Airbnb and I was booking 2-4 bedroom places for between 3-6 people. The cost per person per night jumped from ~$75-150 to $150-250 depending on the week. :-O
- amelius 2y ago
  That was not the question.
- toastercat 2y ago
  That sounds more expensive, but not impossible. Frankly, that's how much I used to pay for a room in Manhattan before AirBnB existed. I chalked it up as the reality of booking in the most populated city in the world. Have you tried Queens or Brooklyn?
  - piva00 2y ago
    > I chalked it up as the reality of booking in the most populated city in the world. Sorry for being pedantic but I believe this isn't really true. New York ranks 11th in the world [0], it's not even the most populated in the Americas, nor 2nd. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities
    - Yawrehto 2y ago
      More pedantry: Population density would make more sense in this context, but it's also not true. It's the most densely populated major city in the US, but that's definitely not the world. Per the same article, by city limits NYC is #18 out of 81, by urban area it's #74, and by metropolitan area it's #19. Densely populated, but it's no Mumbai - which, no matter how you measure it, eclipses NYC in both population and population density.
    - toastercat 2y ago
      Woops! I messed up.
  - powersjcb 2y ago
    I've only ever booked the Airbnbs in Brooklyn before. (We usually try to visit friends in Williamsburg/Greenpoint/Bushwick) Hotels in those neighborhoods are easily $300-500 per night for a queen bed on a weekend. The alternative of midtown/queens hotels are typically still $200-300, but cost more in travel time/expense. My gripe here is mainly that before I could plan an outing for group and we could all live in the space and have common areas for eating/relaxing. Even if hotels were the same price, they still are a worse experience than staying in a house/apartment with friends.
b112 2y ago
It does, both in the title here, and in the article's title. "Only" is clear, and "All that's done so far is make hotels more expensive" from the article title, is also exceptionally clear.
- solardev 2y ago
  I don't think this is the strength of evidence you seem to think it is. I would like to see some actual data and analysis, not just a throwaway clickbait headline.
  - b112 2y ago
    At no point did I say it was evidence. I did say the article spoke to it. Something the post I directly replied to showed confusion about.
- fny 2y ago
  The article’s premise is flawed. Banning Airbnbs obviously won’t reduce housing costs; rather, it aims to prevent even further price increases. One study confirms this link[0], but it’s unclear whether the effect size is meaningful. [0]: https://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/09.05.2019-Proserpio-Davide-Paper.pdf https://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/...
  - solardev 2y ago
    Thank you!
  - chermi 2y ago
    Why is it obvious getting rid of Airbnb won't reduce housing costs? All else being equal, it could increase supply if the hosts are holding on to them only for renting. Increase supply = reduce cost, no? Edit, and by cheaper, I mean less than they would be otherwise. Maybe that's the confusion I'm having.
- morsch 2y ago
  Strictly speaking, the word "only" isn't in the original title (it was editorialized to fit the character limit). And the article barely discusses the effect on housing costs, this is the one paragraph devoted to it and it comes down to "further research needed": But Airbnb and other critics say the near-ban won't do much to address the housing crisis and will hurt homeowners who relied on the rental income and visitors who couldn't afford sky-high hotel costs. There is a slew of factors — including new housing construction and migration patterns — that impact housing costs and vacancy rates. But there's some evidence, including from Irvine, California, that restricting short-term rentals can reduce rents. It's not clear how much of a role LL18 has played so far in changing these conditions.
darth_avocado 2y ago
I would also like to know the impact on the quality of housing left in the city. Short term rentals like Airbnb incentivize owners to update their properties. Long term rentals combined with rent control laws do the opposite.
majormajor 2y ago
> are houses and long term rentals any cheaper You'd need to do more math than that: has the rate of change in prices of those things decreased? It could be more 10% more expensive but previously would've gotten 15% more expensive, for instance. And of course even that is trivializing it: there have been outside factors that would also affect the baseline trend in the price of housing for the last 5-10 years, so it could be tough to measure against it. The authors of the article don't really try: "it's not clear whether the near-ban is achieving one of its central goals: relieving pressure on the city's severe housing shortage."
tharmas 2y ago
It just slows the price rise down. AirBnB is located in SF is it not? So so some of the profits flow from NYC to SF. I get it that hotels too are not Head quartered in NYC so profits leave the city too. But why support housing for financial gain?

ranger_danger 2y ago

I think you already know the answers to all of those.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
I think you suspect the answers to all of those. We'd like to know.
solardev 2y ago
What? Why would I? I don't live there but genuinely want to know. It's a thing that affects many other desirable cities too, and short term housing bans are discussed often. I'd like to know how well it does or doesn't work and what variables contribute to it.
- auntienomen 2y ago
  The problem is that no one has the courage to run a controlled trial to isolate the effect of banning short term rentals. Best you'll get is some natural experiments where you pretend you can compare NYC and Hoboken.

powersjcb 2y ago

They certainly made it impossible to plan a trip to NYC with more than 2 people if that's what they were aiming for. I had previously been planning yearly trips to visit NYC with friends. For the last 3 years with Airbnb and I was booking 2-4 bedroom places for between 3-6 people. The cost per person per night jumped from ~$75-150 to $150-250 depending on the week. :-O

amelius 2y ago
That was not the question.
toastercat 2y ago
That sounds more expensive, but not impossible. Frankly, that's how much I used to pay for a room in Manhattan before AirBnB existed. I chalked it up as the reality of booking in the most populated city in the world. Have you tried Queens or Brooklyn?
- piva00 2y ago
  > I chalked it up as the reality of booking in the most populated city in the world. Sorry for being pedantic but I believe this isn't really true. New York ranks 11th in the world [0], it's not even the most populated in the Americas, nor 2nd. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities
  - Yawrehto 2y ago
    More pedantry: Population density would make more sense in this context, but it's also not true. It's the most densely populated major city in the US, but that's definitely not the world. Per the same article, by city limits NYC is #18 out of 81, by urban area it's #74, and by metropolitan area it's #19. Densely populated, but it's no Mumbai - which, no matter how you measure it, eclipses NYC in both population and population density.
  - toastercat 2y ago
    Woops! I messed up.
- powersjcb 2y ago
  I've only ever booked the Airbnbs in Brooklyn before. (We usually try to visit friends in Williamsburg/Greenpoint/Bushwick) Hotels in those neighborhoods are easily $300-500 per night for a queen bed on a weekend. The alternative of midtown/queens hotels are typically still $200-300, but cost more in travel time/expense. My gripe here is mainly that before I could plan an outing for group and we could all live in the space and have common areas for eating/relaxing. Even if hotels were the same price, they still are a worse experience than staying in a house/apartment with friends.

b112 2y ago

It does, both in the title here, and in the article's title. "Only" is clear, and "All that's done so far is make hotels more expensive" from the article title, is also exceptionally clear.

solardev 2y ago
I don't think this is the strength of evidence you seem to think it is. I would like to see some actual data and analysis, not just a throwaway clickbait headline.
- b112 2y ago
  At no point did I say it was evidence. I did say the article spoke to it. Something the post I directly replied to showed confusion about.
fny 2y ago
The article’s premise is flawed. Banning Airbnbs obviously won’t reduce housing costs; rather, it aims to prevent even further price increases. One study confirms this link[0], but it’s unclear whether the effect size is meaningful. [0]: https://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/09.05.2019-Proserpio-Davide-Paper.pdf https://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/...
- solardev 2y ago
  Thank you!
- chermi 2y ago
  Why is it obvious getting rid of Airbnb won't reduce housing costs? All else being equal, it could increase supply if the hosts are holding on to them only for renting. Increase supply = reduce cost, no? Edit, and by cheaper, I mean less than they would be otherwise. Maybe that's the confusion I'm having.
morsch 2y ago
Strictly speaking, the word "only" isn't in the original title (it was editorialized to fit the character limit). And the article barely discusses the effect on housing costs, this is the one paragraph devoted to it and it comes down to "further research needed": But Airbnb and other critics say the near-ban won't do much to address the housing crisis and will hurt homeowners who relied on the rental income and visitors who couldn't afford sky-high hotel costs. There is a slew of factors — including new housing construction and migration patterns — that impact housing costs and vacancy rates. But there's some evidence, including from Irvine, California, that restricting short-term rentals can reduce rents. It's not clear how much of a role LL18 has played so far in changing these conditions.

darth_avocado 2y ago

I would also like to know the impact on the quality of housing left in the city. Short term rentals like Airbnb incentivize owners to update their properties. Long term rentals combined with rent control laws do the opposite.

majormajor 2y ago

> are houses and long term rentals any cheaper You'd need to do more math than that: has the rate of change in prices of those things decreased? It could be more 10% more expensive but previously would've gotten 15% more expensive, for instance. And of course even that is trivializing it: there have been outside factors that would also affect the baseline trend in the price of housing for the last 5-10 years, so it could be tough to measure against it. The authors of the article don't really try: "it's not clear whether the near-ban is achieving one of its central goals: relieving pressure on the city's severe housing shortage."

tharmas 2y ago

It just slows the price rise down. AirBnB is located in SF is it not? So so some of the profits flow from NYC to SF. I get it that hotels too are not Head quartered in NYC so profits leave the city too. But why support housing for financial gain?