4 ms·

Why is it insane? I never consented to this. Why do I have to do so much to protect myself when I never signed a contract with any of these advertisers?

stuartjohnson12 2y ago
Because organ donation endangers one's life and significantly increases all-causes mortality. Major organs are also zero-sum - someone becoming organ-rich necessarily requires someone else to become far less healthy. Loss of privacy is incremental, not automatically life-threatening, and not zero-sum.
- SkyBelow 2y ago
  The law bans the organ markets for both the living and the deceased. I feel those differences primarily apply to organs from the living. We also should use some more distinction, because there are certain parts of a body one can sell (blood plasma as an example), so the whole topic is much more nuanced and I think deserves more than a simplistic rejection as if there is no nuance for discussion. (To be clear, some attempted analogies do deserve a simplistic rejection, so I'm not saying that as some inherent criticism, only that I don't think it fits here.)
- jampekka 2y ago
  Would a better analogy then be whether you should be able to sell your vote?
  - stuartjohnson12 2y ago
    Probably a better one than organ theft, but still not great because voting has the power to infinitely coerce other people with state violence in a way that signing away one's privacy doesn't.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
That’s the way the internet was built. If we could somehow create an incentive system that didn’t rely on advertising, that would be a miracle.
- cgriswald 2y ago
  It isn’t the way the internet was built. It’s the way some businesses on the internet were built and it has bled into businesses that were never built that way, like TV manufacturers.
  - rs999gti 2y ago
    If there were no ads and tracking, then there would be paywalls and credit card entry forms everywhere. The web is free for the commercial stuff, because your data is the payment.
    - cgriswald 2y ago
      Ignoring the many exceptions to that statement, companies charge me my data because it makes them more money than if I paid directly. To the extent that companies need to do that, it is only because every other company of the same class operates that way too. Regardless, there already are paywalls and credit card forms everywhere and it doesn’t stop my data from being collected and sold. Even when I purchase physical goods online it is tracked and sold. Even when I use physical goods that I paid for with cash I am tracked with that good and the data is sold. Even companies with which I have not even an implied contract have profiles of me.
      - mensetmanusman 2y ago
        We don’t know how to build a system where people subscribe to the entire internet.
        cgriswald 2y ago
        The greatest barrier to your non sequitur isn’t technological. We know how to advertise without ubiquitous privacy violations and theft of personal data if a site must be “free” and support itself through advertisements.
rs999gti 2y ago
> I never signed a contract with any of these advertisers? You should read all those GDPR web pop ups. Lots of legalese in there saying you are contractually letting the company do XYZ if you accept cookies or continue to use the site. How many people actually read them or just blindly click them?

stuartjohnson12 2y ago

Because organ donation endangers one's life and significantly increases all-causes mortality. Major organs are also zero-sum - someone becoming organ-rich necessarily requires someone else to become far less healthy. Loss of privacy is incremental, not automatically life-threatening, and not zero-sum.

SkyBelow 2y ago
The law bans the organ markets for both the living and the deceased. I feel those differences primarily apply to organs from the living. We also should use some more distinction, because there are certain parts of a body one can sell (blood plasma as an example), so the whole topic is much more nuanced and I think deserves more than a simplistic rejection as if there is no nuance for discussion. (To be clear, some attempted analogies do deserve a simplistic rejection, so I'm not saying that as some inherent criticism, only that I don't think it fits here.)
jampekka 2y ago
Would a better analogy then be whether you should be able to sell your vote?
- stuartjohnson12 2y ago
  Probably a better one than organ theft, but still not great because voting has the power to infinitely coerce other people with state violence in a way that signing away one's privacy doesn't.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

That’s the way the internet was built. If we could somehow create an incentive system that didn’t rely on advertising, that would be a miracle.

cgriswald 2y ago
It isn’t the way the internet was built. It’s the way some businesses on the internet were built and it has bled into businesses that were never built that way, like TV manufacturers.
- rs999gti 2y ago
  If there were no ads and tracking, then there would be paywalls and credit card entry forms everywhere. The web is free for the commercial stuff, because your data is the payment.
  - cgriswald 2y ago
    Ignoring the many exceptions to that statement, companies charge me my data because it makes them more money than if I paid directly. To the extent that companies need to do that, it is only because every other company of the same class operates that way too. Regardless, there already are paywalls and credit card forms everywhere and it doesn’t stop my data from being collected and sold. Even when I purchase physical goods online it is tracked and sold. Even when I use physical goods that I paid for with cash I am tracked with that good and the data is sold. Even companies with which I have not even an implied contract have profiles of me.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      We don’t know how to build a system where people subscribe to the entire internet.
      - cgriswald 2y ago
        The greatest barrier to your non sequitur isn’t technological. We know how to advertise without ubiquitous privacy violations and theft of personal data if a site must be “free” and support itself through advertisements.

rs999gti 2y ago

> I never signed a contract with any of these advertisers? You should read all those GDPR web pop ups. Lots of legalese in there saying you are contractually letting the company do XYZ if you accept cookies or continue to use the site. How many people actually read them or just blindly click them?