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that's also why we don't get any decent credit cards in europe - there's no money to pay for it i think the US system is probably better for wealthy people who

that's also why we don't get any decent credit cards in europe - there's no money to pay for it i think the US system is probably better for wealthy people who always use cards and actively play the game (and for the credit card processors of course). Euro system is better for everyone else ps: is there some sort of contract that stops vendors from adding a "credit card processing fee"? maybe banning those clauses would be the best way to let market forces sort the issue out - once people see that they're paying 3.5% more to use a 2% cashback card, they'll start asking for other options

piva00 2y ago
> that's also why we don't get any decent credit cards in europe - there's no money to pay for it I'm totally okay with not paying higher prices so merchants can pay fees that subsidise credit cards benefits for a few.
zarzavat 2y ago
Another way of looking at it is that every credit card in EU is better than in the US because the credit card companies are not taking with one hand and giving back less with the other. The money has to come from somewhere. It’s a great coup of US credit card companies to convince credit card users that they are getting “free money” when it’s the exact same money they paid in transaction fees.
- akira2501 2y ago
  US credit can be indispensable for those taking career risks and those operating small businesses. In any case, I don't pay transaction fees the merchant does. They're often not allowed to give cash or particular types of cash-in-kind store discounts. This actually just raises the prices for everyone. The payoff for the merchant is it reduces some of the risk of taking cash money and stabilizes some of their transaction flows through their account. It's all probably worth slightly more than what the EU caps it at, but the solution to improve this discovery is to increase the number of transaction networks, not arbitrarily cut them off at the knees and ensure the market never grows to this point. It's at least one reason to love bitcoin and other crypto. You don't need permission to conduct a transaction. Which, given the extreme costs of transactions there, was clearly sorely lacking in the current artificially scarce market.
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    EU has no credit?
    - lxgr 2y ago
      It does, and it's usually free if you pay in full every month, just like in the US. Given the interchange cap (0.3%) and current interest rates, this interestingly looks like a losing product at a first glance (the cost of capital for an average due date of 6 weeks after the purchase date is higher than 0.3%).
  - Sayrus 2y ago
    > In any case, I don't pay transaction fees the merchant does. Unless you're one of those operating small businesses. > It's at least one reason to love bitcoin and other crypto. Sure but what happens in case of fraud, or if I need to initiate a dispute ? What are the fees for that transaction ?
    - akira2501 2y ago
      > Sure but what happens in case of fraud, or if I need to initiate a dispute ? What are the fees for that transaction ? Well, yea, exactly. I'm pointing out two systems that are diametrically opposed and nothing in the middle. It highlights the fact the market is broken. This is one consequence of that. > Unless you're one of those operating small businesses. Ironically, I never took credit. Cash or Check only. Handling costs don't apply because the chain of custody is just myself.
      - manuelmoreale 2y ago
        Here in the EU I don’t think you can go cash only as a business. It’s just not an option. I’m ignoring checks because those aren’t a thing anymore. Only people in their 70s might still use them.
        lxgr 2y ago
- reaperman 2y ago
  > It’s a great coup of US credit card companies to convince credit card users that they are getting “free money” when it’s the exact same money they paid in transaction fees. The transaction fees aren't explicitly added to only credit card transactions - they are baked into the price so people who pay cash and debit are also paying a fee. Credit card rewards therefore reallocate money from people who use cash/debit cards to people who use "reward (credit) cards".
barrkel 2y ago
The US system is a tax on people paying with cash.
rahimnathwani 2y ago
ps: is there some sort of contract that stops vendors from adding a "credit card processing fee"? Yes, and getting rid of that restriction was part of this settlement.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> why we don't get any decent credit cards in europe - there's no money to pay for it What are Visa and Mastercard's net take rates in the U.S.? (As in, out of that 3.5%, how much do they keep on average and for premium cards?)
- lxgr 2y ago
  It’s a bit more complicated: Even in the US, it’s not Visa and Mastercard taking the entire 3.5%. The largest part of that goes to the issuers, who pay a significant fraction back to the cardholder as rewards.
- kasey_junk 2y ago
  Depends on the card type, merchant type and transaction type but about 0.14%
doikor 2y ago
> is there some sort of contract that stops vendors from adding a "credit card processing fee"? In EU it is not allowed to charge the customer any kind of extra fee for using a card. Though obviously it only works well together with the 0.3% cap on the actual fees the vendor pays. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/making-receiving-payments/electronic-cash-payments/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/making... > You're not allowed to charge your customers extra for using a credit or debit card. This applies to all card purchases (in shops and online) made throughout the EU.

piva00 2y ago

> that's also why we don't get any decent credit cards in europe - there's no money to pay for it I'm totally okay with not paying higher prices so merchants can pay fees that subsidise credit cards benefits for a few.

zarzavat 2y ago

Another way of looking at it is that every credit card in EU is better than in the US because the credit card companies are not taking with one hand and giving back less with the other. The money has to come from somewhere. It’s a great coup of US credit card companies to convince credit card users that they are getting “free money” when it’s the exact same money they paid in transaction fees.

akira2501 2y ago
US credit can be indispensable for those taking career risks and those operating small businesses. In any case, I don't pay transaction fees the merchant does. They're often not allowed to give cash or particular types of cash-in-kind store discounts. This actually just raises the prices for everyone. The payoff for the merchant is it reduces some of the risk of taking cash money and stabilizes some of their transaction flows through their account. It's all probably worth slightly more than what the EU caps it at, but the solution to improve this discovery is to increase the number of transaction networks, not arbitrarily cut them off at the knees and ensure the market never grows to this point. It's at least one reason to love bitcoin and other crypto. You don't need permission to conduct a transaction. Which, given the extreme costs of transactions there, was clearly sorely lacking in the current artificially scarce market.
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  EU has no credit?
  - lxgr 2y ago
    It does, and it's usually free if you pay in full every month, just like in the US. Given the interchange cap (0.3%) and current interest rates, this interestingly looks like a losing product at a first glance (the cost of capital for an average due date of 6 weeks after the purchase date is higher than 0.3%).
- Sayrus 2y ago
  > In any case, I don't pay transaction fees the merchant does. Unless you're one of those operating small businesses. > It's at least one reason to love bitcoin and other crypto. Sure but what happens in case of fraud, or if I need to initiate a dispute ? What are the fees for that transaction ?
  - akira2501 2y ago
    > Sure but what happens in case of fraud, or if I need to initiate a dispute ? What are the fees for that transaction ? Well, yea, exactly. I'm pointing out two systems that are diametrically opposed and nothing in the middle. It highlights the fact the market is broken. This is one consequence of that. > Unless you're one of those operating small businesses. Ironically, I never took credit. Cash or Check only. Handling costs don't apply because the chain of custody is just myself.
    - manuelmoreale 2y ago
      Here in the EU I don’t think you can go cash only as a business. It’s just not an option. I’m ignoring checks because those aren’t a thing anymore. Only people in their 70s might still use them.
      - lxgr 2y ago
reaperman 2y ago
> It’s a great coup of US credit card companies to convince credit card users that they are getting “free money” when it’s the exact same money they paid in transaction fees. The transaction fees aren't explicitly added to only credit card transactions - they are baked into the price so people who pay cash and debit are also paying a fee. Credit card rewards therefore reallocate money from people who use cash/debit cards to people who use "reward (credit) cards".

barrkel 2y ago

The US system is a tax on people paying with cash.

rahimnathwani 2y ago

ps: is there some sort of contract that stops vendors from adding a "credit card processing fee"? Yes, and getting rid of that restriction was part of this settlement.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> why we don't get any decent credit cards in europe - there's no money to pay for it What are Visa and Mastercard's net take rates in the U.S.? (As in, out of that 3.5%, how much do they keep on average and for premium cards?)

lxgr 2y ago
It’s a bit more complicated: Even in the US, it’s not Visa and Mastercard taking the entire 3.5%. The largest part of that goes to the issuers, who pay a significant fraction back to the cardholder as rewards.
kasey_junk 2y ago
Depends on the card type, merchant type and transaction type but about 0.14%

doikor 2y ago

> is there some sort of contract that stops vendors from adding a "credit card processing fee"? In EU it is not allowed to charge the customer any kind of extra fee for using a card. Though obviously it only works well together with the 0.3% cap on the actual fees the vendor pays. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/making-receiving-payments/electronic-cash-payments/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/making... > You're not allowed to charge your customers extra for using a credit or debit card. This applies to all card purchases (in shops and online) made throughout the EU.