4 ms·

> I didn’t necessarily could speak it well This is actually a good example of users of the language adapting it to their needs. "didn't could speak" is not tec

> I didn’t necessarily could speak it well This is actually a good example of users of the language adapting it to their needs. "didn't could speak" is not technically correct, but I'm not condemning it. You hear this in some Southern speakers especially, e.g. "We used to would go to that park" "That car needs fixed" "I might could use those verbs correctly. The more complicated verb tenses in English are pretty damn hard for people, even native speakers. So they adapt. For the record, the "correct" English would be: "I couldn't necessarily speak it well" or "I didn't necessarily learn to speak it well"

drdec 2y ago
> The more complicated verb tenses in English are pretty damn hard for people, even native speakers. So they adapt. You might hold some consideration that for some people, this is how everyone around them talks. And thus they consider it perfectly acceptable, and it is not a consequence of the language being difficult for them.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  > You might hold some consideration so you're holding that up as snobbery, when it's the exact opposite? > this is how everyone around them talks but someone had to start. It didn't just come out of nowhere.
  - drdec 2y ago
    > so you're holding that up as snobbery, when it's the exact opposite? I've offended you. That was not my intention. My apologies. > but someone had to start. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Your statement is painting everyone who talks that way with the same brush. It's unlikely that anyone you encounter who uses those phrases was responsible for coining them.
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      > painting everyone who talks that way with the same brush. I don't see what point you're making. Everyone is influenced by the people around them. That's how we have dialects and regional speech patterns. So what? I actually like those examples I gave. "We might be able to fix that" is certainly a lot more trouble to say than "we might could fix that" and people who say the latter are being a bit creative in their rule-breaking.
      - kragen 2y ago
        someone who expresses 'i might be able to drive' as 'quizás podría manejar' isn't creatively breaking the rules of english. they're speaking spanish. similarly, someone who says 'i might could drive' is not creatively breaking the rules of your dialect of english. they're following the rules of their dialect. you're insisting on treating it as a poor approximation of your own dialect, whether due to creativity or to simple incompetence. that is unbelievably arrogant and thus extremely annoying double modals have been permitted by the rules of many dialects of american english for decades if not centuries, possibly calqued from scots or german. double modal dialects of english are also common in scotland. there's nothing rule-breaking about 'might could'. 'might could' is probably the absolute most common double modal in american english, so saying 'might could' is no more creative than saying 'eat supper' https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/multiple-modals https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/multiple-modals and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_modal_auxiliary_verbs#Double_modals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_modal_auxiliary_verb... has more information. http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/multimo/ http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/multimo/ is a database of observed uses of the construction, and https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0295799 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... is a recent paper advocating the unorthodox hypothesis that double modals originated independently in american english rather than being imported from scotland
        AlbertCory 2y ago
        > that is unbelievably arrogant and thus extremely annoying Do you think maybe you're taking everything just a shade too seriously? Like, taking offense at a simple expression of preference? Lighten up.
  - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
    > but someone had to start. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Weird grammar often comes from other languages, not from someone making a mistake. Is it possible that West African languages were an influence?
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      Grammar also often comes from a reanalysis process, involving a stage where what people are saying doesn't change, but how they view the internal structure of what they're saying does.
- eru 2y ago
  Well, a lot of modern standard English is made of left-overs from the mistakes people made when they couldn't understand or pronounce the earlier systems. That's how language evolves.
canjobear 2y ago
As a Southerner who would definitely say "I might could…", I would never say “I didn’t necessarily could speak it well”. That’s not how double modals work. (“I used to could…” seems marginally ok to me though.) Also the “needs fixed” thing is not a Southern dialect property, I associate it more with like Pittsburgh.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  I never heard either one in the South OR in Pittsburgh. I have heard them in California, though, which draws people from everywhere. However, I think there's a Lyle Lovett song that goes "We used to would <verb phrase>." What I like about it is: you understand it. Although it might strike you as "wrong" and I'd probably never say it myself, let alone write it.

drdec 2y ago

> The more complicated verb tenses in English are pretty damn hard for people, even native speakers. So they adapt. You might hold some consideration that for some people, this is how everyone around them talks. And thus they consider it perfectly acceptable, and it is not a consequence of the language being difficult for them.

AlbertCory 2y ago
> You might hold some consideration so you're holding that up as snobbery, when it's the exact opposite? > this is how everyone around them talks but someone had to start. It didn't just come out of nowhere.
- drdec 2y ago
  > so you're holding that up as snobbery, when it's the exact opposite? I've offended you. That was not my intention. My apologies. > but someone had to start. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Your statement is painting everyone who talks that way with the same brush. It's unlikely that anyone you encounter who uses those phrases was responsible for coining them.
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    > painting everyone who talks that way with the same brush. I don't see what point you're making. Everyone is influenced by the people around them. That's how we have dialects and regional speech patterns. So what? I actually like those examples I gave. "We might be able to fix that" is certainly a lot more trouble to say than "we might could fix that" and people who say the latter are being a bit creative in their rule-breaking.
    - kragen 2y ago
      someone who expresses 'i might be able to drive' as 'quizás podría manejar' isn't creatively breaking the rules of english. they're speaking spanish. similarly, someone who says 'i might could drive' is not creatively breaking the rules of your dialect of english. they're following the rules of their dialect. you're insisting on treating it as a poor approximation of your own dialect, whether due to creativity or to simple incompetence. that is unbelievably arrogant and thus extremely annoying double modals have been permitted by the rules of many dialects of american english for decades if not centuries, possibly calqued from scots or german. double modal dialects of english are also common in scotland. there's nothing rule-breaking about 'might could'. 'might could' is probably the absolute most common double modal in american english, so saying 'might could' is no more creative than saying 'eat supper' https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/multiple-modals https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/multiple-modals and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_modal_auxiliary_verbs#Double_modals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_modal_auxiliary_verb... has more information. http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/multimo/ http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/multimo/ is a database of observed uses of the construction, and https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0295799 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... is a recent paper advocating the unorthodox hypothesis that double modals originated independently in american english rather than being imported from scotland
      - AlbertCory 2y ago
        > that is unbelievably arrogant and thus extremely annoying Do you think maybe you're taking everything just a shade too seriously? Like, taking offense at a simple expression of preference? Lighten up.
- RoyalHenOil 2y ago
  > but someone had to start. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Weird grammar often comes from other languages, not from someone making a mistake. Is it possible that West African languages were an influence?
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    Grammar also often comes from a reanalysis process, involving a stage where what people are saying doesn't change, but how they view the internal structure of what they're saying does.
eru 2y ago
Well, a lot of modern standard English is made of left-overs from the mistakes people made when they couldn't understand or pronounce the earlier systems. That's how language evolves.

canjobear 2y ago

As a Southerner who would definitely say "I might could…", I would never say “I didn’t necessarily could speak it well”. That’s not how double modals work. (“I used to could…” seems marginally ok to me though.) Also the “needs fixed” thing is not a Southern dialect property, I associate it more with like Pittsburgh.

AlbertCory 2y ago
I never heard either one in the South OR in Pittsburgh. I have heard them in California, though, which draws people from everywhere. However, I think there's a Lyle Lovett song that goes "We used to would <verb phrase>." What I like about it is: you understand it. Although it might strike you as "wrong" and I'd probably never say it myself, let alone write it.