5 ms·

I would be interested in the people who did structural/functional diagramming and views to the concrete/solidity of "that's not proper english" or "that isn't h

by ggm 2y ago

I would be interested in the people who did structural/functional diagramming and views to the concrete/solidity of "that's not proper english" or "that isn't how it works" because the other side of the coin is that english (and obviously other languages: Spanish and gender..) change over time, and are fluid against the needs of their speakers. I guess I'm arguing that if you did training in the formalism of a parse-tree, I wonder if it tends to re-inforce a view in "proper" use of a language rather than it's emergent behaviour and shifts of meaning.

paulmooreparks 2y ago
While I'm not a prescriptivist, I think diagramming (and the rest of the strict English grammar education I was given in the 70's and 80's) helped me to understand why grammar rules exist and how they bring clarity to communication. I think that also helped me when learning to write code.
AlbertCory 2y ago
I don't think this applies, particularly. Diagramming wasn't so much "this is how a sentence should be set up" as "this is the function of this word in this sentence."
- ggm 2y ago
  in the case of the fruit flies and the banana...
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    There would be two possible diagrams for that sentence, depending on how you understand it.
    - eru 2y ago
      How about 'The soup that eats like a meal' or a 'pick-pocket'?
      - AlbertCory 2y ago
        You're trying to condemn prescriptivism? What's your point -- some things can't be diagrammed? Who said they could be? The first one is deliberately "wrong" for advertising effect, like "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should." when the correct English is "Winston tastes good, as a cigarette should." The ad copywriters liked how it sounded.
        eru 2y ago
        > You're trying to condemn prescriptivism? No, that's a separate discussion. You can use the diagrams for both description and prescription. > What's your point -- some things can't be diagrammed? Well, at most that some things can't be diagrammed naively, and perhaps need a more complicated diagram language. > The first one is deliberately "wrong" for advertising effect, [...] No, it's perfectly fine. It's called 'middle voice' and is a normal, if relatively rare, feature of English. Your Winston-ad example also seems like your correction makes it less grammatical.
Izkata 2y ago
There are subtle parts of how English works that confuse a lot of people, that diagramming might help with. The most obvious to me was the Harry Potter scene where, in the movie, Professor Snape says "and even put a stopper in death" [0]. The book version was just "even stopper death". These mean opposite things. One uses "stopper" as a noun, saying to prevent death. The other is using it as a verb, saying to bottle up death - create a potion to cause death. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWqz8kafo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWqz8kafo
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  I don't know if there's an idiom getting in the way, but "put a stopper in" also sounds like bottling to me.
082349872349872 2y ago
You can diagram AAVE just as easily as standard american english; it just uses a slightly different ruleset.

by ggm 2y ago

paulmooreparks 2y ago

While I'm not a prescriptivist, I think diagramming (and the rest of the strict English grammar education I was given in the 70's and 80's) helped me to understand why grammar rules exist and how they bring clarity to communication. I think that also helped me when learning to write code.

AlbertCory 2y ago

I don't think this applies, particularly. Diagramming wasn't so much "this is how a sentence should be set up" as "this is the function of this word in this sentence."

ggm 2y ago
in the case of the fruit flies and the banana...
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  There would be two possible diagrams for that sentence, depending on how you understand it.
  - eru 2y ago
    How about 'The soup that eats like a meal' or a 'pick-pocket'?
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      You're trying to condemn prescriptivism? What's your point -- some things can't be diagrammed? Who said they could be? The first one is deliberately "wrong" for advertising effect, like "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should." when the correct English is "Winston tastes good, as a cigarette should." The ad copywriters liked how it sounded.
      - eru 2y ago
        > You're trying to condemn prescriptivism? No, that's a separate discussion. You can use the diagrams for both description and prescription. > What's your point -- some things can't be diagrammed? Well, at most that some things can't be diagrammed naively, and perhaps need a more complicated diagram language. > The first one is deliberately "wrong" for advertising effect, [...] No, it's perfectly fine. It's called 'middle voice' and is a normal, if relatively rare, feature of English. Your Winston-ad example also seems like your correction makes it less grammatical.

Izkata 2y ago

There are subtle parts of how English works that confuse a lot of people, that diagramming might help with. The most obvious to me was the Harry Potter scene where, in the movie, Professor Snape says "and even put a stopper in death" [0]. The book version was just "even stopper death". These mean opposite things. One uses "stopper" as a noun, saying to prevent death. The other is using it as a verb, saying to bottle up death - create a potion to cause death. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWqz8kafo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWqz8kafo

Dylan16807 2y ago
I don't know if there's an idiom getting in the way, but "put a stopper in" also sounds like bottling to me.

082349872349872 2y ago

You can diagram AAVE just as easily as standard american english; it just uses a slightly different ruleset.