4 ms·

sink based on Google's Twinkie open hardware

168 points by transpute 2y ago

normie3000 2y ago
> This one "sniffs" the link just for the Power Delivery negotiations that happen at the lowest electrical levels. If a device or cable is misbehaving, a knowledgeable person should be able to replicate the problem and see it happening with the sniffer. They could see which component was not following spec, and most importantly, exactly what it was doing wrong. > > Even if your computer is participating in Power Delivery, it can't see its own PD traffic because all that is handled at a low level by ASIC chips in your USB port. Hence the need for a separate physical device to see the signals that are actually being sent on the wire. https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qmz9uz/twonkie_homeassembled_googleinspired_usbpd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qmz9uz/twonki...
- transpute 2y ago
  Equivalent commercial PD analyer is ~$200, https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/evaluation-boards/cy4500/ https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/evaluation-boards/cy... > records traffic passively on the Configuration Channel (CC) and allows users to analyze and debug USB Power Delivery communication.. acts as a pass-through for VBUS, VCONN, USB 3.1, USB 2.0 and USB-PD traffic Total Phase / Google Twinkie device with Sigrok Pulseview software, https://www.totalphase.com/blog/2015/10/usb-power-delivery-analyzer-summary-resources-2/ https://www.totalphase.com/blog/2015/10/usb-power-delivery-a...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - nimish 2y ago
    More like $60, or charger lab has a nicer one for about the same price. https://estore.st.com/en/products/evaluation-tools/product-evaluation-tools/mcu-mpu-eval-tools/stm32-mcu-mpu-eval-tools/stm32-discovery-kits/stm32g071b-disco.html https://estore.st.com/en/products/evaluation-tools/product-e...
    - Panzer04 2y ago
      Nicer in what way? I've used the one referenced in the first comment (CY4500) and it worked quite well. I'm not entirely sure what could be done better. Nice to know that cheaper ones exist though - is the supporting SW any good (reading out packets, recording etc)
      - nimish 2y ago
        Nicer in that it has a good HMI. Anandtech has a nice review: https://www.anandtech.com/show/18944/usbc-power-metering-with-the-chargerlab-km003c-a-google-twinkie-alternative https://www.anandtech.com/show/18944/usbc-power-metering-wit...
        Panzer04 2y ago
        This isn't quite the same thing, I think. The Cypress one has decent software for reading individual PD packets and debugging PD/TCPM implementations. Even if you can read out the packets with that, it doesn't look like it has a good pre-existing analysis software for it, which is a large part of the value proposition for the cypress version.
        nimish 2y ago
        That's what sigrok or wireshark are for, IMO. Of course, you lose something for half the price. The ST one does have a protocol analyzer.
        Panzer04 2y ago
        Well, you can't read PD packets at that layer - they are only realistically visible at the driver layer and below, as the TCPM driver will manage the PD negotiation (and the main benefit of these analysers, at least for me, was to help write such a driver in the first place :))
    - transpute 2y ago
      > charger lab has a nicer one Power-Z KM003C? https://www.amazon.com/ChargerLAB-KM003C-Portable-Charging-Voltmeter/dp/B0BJ24PVNJ/ https://www.amazon.com/ChargerLAB-KM003C-Portable-Charging-V...
transpute 2y ago
$6 USB-C breakout for selectable voltage, https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-husb238-usb-type-c-power-delivery-breakout/overview https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-husb238-usb-type-c-power... > The HUSB238 USB PD sink chip is neat in that you can either use jumpers (really, resistor selection) to set the desired power delivery voltage and current or you can use I2C for dynamic querying and setting.
- btgeekboy 2y ago
  I combined one of those cheap breakouts with this variable voltage power supply - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0861LGM15 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0861LGM15 - and a 3d printed enclosure to make a benchtop power supply pretty affordably. Just use your laptop's power supply and now you can have any voltage and limited amperage.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jwildeboer 2y ago
    I am waiting for an updated version that does PD 3.1, so it can go to 48V/5A.
    - dtx1 2y ago
      That's 240W. You could charge an e-Bike via USB-C with that. Insane.
      - jwildeboer 2y ago
        Yep. That's exactly what I am looking for. Use USB-PD to charge small electric vehicles in a standardised way ;) See https://jan.wildeboer.net/2024/06/Charging-SEVs-A-Modest-Proposal-AODP/ https://jan.wildeboer.net/2024/06/Charging-SEVs-A-Modest-Pro... where I describe the concept and https://github.com/manuelbl/usb-pd-arduino/wiki https://github.com/manuelbl/usb-pd-arduino/wiki where there is Open Source code (and schematics) to do PD sniffing and sink negotiation.
RockRobotRock 2y ago
There is a very useful cheap device “TC66C” you can buy on aliexpress which acts as a multimeter and lets you test/trigger PD and the older protocols like Qualcomm quick charge.
eggy1 2y ago
I'm twinkie, and I'm twonkie, and we're the sniffer brothers
ComputerGuru 2y ago
Link to original Twinkie is dead, here’s an archived copy: https://archive.is/EGxFi https://archive.is/EGxFi
- denimnerd42 2y ago
  https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guides/hardware-schematics/twinkie/ https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guide...

168 points by transpute 2y ago

> This one "sniffs" the link just for the Power Delivery negotiations that happen at the lowest electrical levels. If a device or cable is misbehaving, a knowledgeable person should be able to replicate the problem and see it happening with the sniffer. They could see which component was not following spec, and most importantly, exactly what it was doing wrong. > > Even if your computer is participating in Power Delivery, it can't see its own PD traffic because all that is handled at a low level by ASIC chips in your USB port. Hence the need for a separate physical device to see the signals that are actually being sent on the wire. https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qmz9uz/twonkie_homeassembled_googleinspired_usbpd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qmz9uz/twonki...

transpute 2y ago
Equivalent commercial PD analyer is ~$200, https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/evaluation-boards/cy4500/ https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/evaluation-boards/cy... > records traffic passively on the Configuration Channel (CC) and allows users to analyze and debug USB Power Delivery communication.. acts as a pass-through for VBUS, VCONN, USB 3.1, USB 2.0 and USB-PD traffic Total Phase / Google Twinkie device with Sigrok Pulseview software, https://www.totalphase.com/blog/2015/10/usb-power-delivery-analyzer-summary-resources-2/ https://www.totalphase.com/blog/2015/10/usb-power-delivery-a...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nimish 2y ago
  More like $60, or charger lab has a nicer one for about the same price. https://estore.st.com/en/products/evaluation-tools/product-evaluation-tools/mcu-mpu-eval-tools/stm32-mcu-mpu-eval-tools/stm32-discovery-kits/stm32g071b-disco.html https://estore.st.com/en/products/evaluation-tools/product-e...
  - Panzer04 2y ago
    Nicer in what way? I've used the one referenced in the first comment (CY4500) and it worked quite well. I'm not entirely sure what could be done better. Nice to know that cheaper ones exist though - is the supporting SW any good (reading out packets, recording etc)
    - nimish 2y ago
      Nicer in that it has a good HMI. Anandtech has a nice review: https://www.anandtech.com/show/18944/usbc-power-metering-with-the-chargerlab-km003c-a-google-twinkie-alternative https://www.anandtech.com/show/18944/usbc-power-metering-wit...
      - Panzer04 2y ago
        This isn't quite the same thing, I think. The Cypress one has decent software for reading individual PD packets and debugging PD/TCPM implementations. Even if you can read out the packets with that, it doesn't look like it has a good pre-existing analysis software for it, which is a large part of the value proposition for the cypress version.
        nimish 2y ago
        That's what sigrok or wireshark are for, IMO. Of course, you lose something for half the price. The ST one does have a protocol analyzer.
        Panzer04 2y ago
        Well, you can't read PD packets at that layer - they are only realistically visible at the driver layer and below, as the TCPM driver will manage the PD negotiation (and the main benefit of these analysers, at least for me, was to help write such a driver in the first place :))
  - transpute 2y ago
    > charger lab has a nicer one Power-Z KM003C? https://www.amazon.com/ChargerLAB-KM003C-Portable-Charging-Voltmeter/dp/B0BJ24PVNJ/ https://www.amazon.com/ChargerLAB-KM003C-Portable-Charging-V...

transpute 2y ago

$6 USB-C breakout for selectable voltage, https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-husb238-usb-type-c-power-delivery-breakout/overview https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-husb238-usb-type-c-power... > The HUSB238 USB PD sink chip is neat in that you can either use jumpers (really, resistor selection) to set the desired power delivery voltage and current or you can use I2C for dynamic querying and setting.

btgeekboy 2y ago
I combined one of those cheap breakouts with this variable voltage power supply - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0861LGM15 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0861LGM15 - and a 3d printed enclosure to make a benchtop power supply pretty affordably. Just use your laptop's power supply and now you can have any voltage and limited amperage.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jwildeboer 2y ago
  I am waiting for an updated version that does PD 3.1, so it can go to 48V/5A.
  - dtx1 2y ago
    That's 240W. You could charge an e-Bike via USB-C with that. Insane.
    - jwildeboer 2y ago
      Yep. That's exactly what I am looking for. Use USB-PD to charge small electric vehicles in a standardised way ;) See https://jan.wildeboer.net/2024/06/Charging-SEVs-A-Modest-Proposal-AODP/ https://jan.wildeboer.net/2024/06/Charging-SEVs-A-Modest-Pro... where I describe the concept and https://github.com/manuelbl/usb-pd-arduino/wiki https://github.com/manuelbl/usb-pd-arduino/wiki where there is Open Source code (and schematics) to do PD sniffing and sink negotiation.

RockRobotRock 2y ago

There is a very useful cheap device “TC66C” you can buy on aliexpress which acts as a multimeter and lets you test/trigger PD and the older protocols like Qualcomm quick charge.

eggy1 2y ago

I'm twinkie, and I'm twonkie, and we're the sniffer brothers

ComputerGuru 2y ago

Link to original Twinkie is dead, here’s an archived copy: https://archive.is/EGxFi https://archive.is/EGxFi

denimnerd42 2y ago
https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guides/hardware-schematics/twinkie/ https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guide...