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> Mathematicians are very much in davis/hersh "what is mathematics anyway" This reminds me of getting my CS degree in the early 2000s, then slowly realizing th

> Mathematicians are very much in davis/hersh "what is mathematics anyway" This reminds me of getting my CS degree in the early 2000s, then slowly realizing that my comp-sci program had taught me lots of interesting things about how computers and programs work, and essentially nothing about how to write code for a living. Also reminds me of playing Dominion (the card game) with another student, me saying "Okay, I've got 1 and 2 and 2 and 3, that's 8..." and him gasping "Wow! How did you do that so fast?" Dude was a math grad student. I narrowly restrained myself from saying "Well, you see, I finished the 3rd grade..."

criddell 2y ago
I got my degree in the mid 90's and let me tell you - high school guidance counsellors in the 1980's had no clue at all what computer science was. I arrived at university expecting to be writing a lot of programs and was soon struggling with a heavy load of mathematics and proofs. Our introduction to computer programming professor made it clear that that class was the only one where we would be taught to program. Computer science, he said, was mostly done with paper and pencil. It wasn't quite true. We eventually did a lot of programming, but it was nothing like I was expecting.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  The problem with actually learning to code in school is that you'd spend a lot of time learning specifics that become outdated, which you could've self-studied anyway. Idk what it was like in the 1980s, but in 2015 our CS practice problems and tests were mostly pencil+paper, with actual code only used as a teaching tool in projects and some homework (more in lower divs).
  - criddell 2y ago
    That’s why I think the old SICP-based curricula are so great. Learning Scheme isn’t really the point. It’s all about fundamentals of computation.
    - hot_gril 2y ago
      We used Scheme too, it was a good way of teaching general computation.
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  > high school guidance counsellors in the 1980's had no clue at all what computer science was. My problem was that the fucking college counselors didn't know either. When I signed up, I told the lady I wanted to be a computer programmer, and she said "You'll want computer science, then," and that wasn't true. The CS program was only interested in teaching me how to be a CS professor. A few years in I was scouring the course lists for classes on graphics, web, anything with a GUI even, and there was nothing. It was 100% command line C++, and they didn't even bother teaching us about IDEs and debuggers. Just Telnet, vi, g++. It was like taking a pure math degree to become an architect.
  - jimbokun 2y ago
    > Just Telnet, vi, g++. Those have absolutely stood the test of time than any specific IDE or debugger.
    - criddell 2y ago
      That doesn't necessarily make them a great choice for teaching. A '57 Chevy has stood the test of time, but a modern car with an automatic transmission, power steering, power brakes, and air bags is probably a better choice for a driving school today.
klyrs 2y ago
> Dude was a math grad student. I narrowly restrained myself from saying ... Do not show restraint, and neither will I. For I am a mathematician, not a fucking calculator. But once, early in undergrad, I was capable of multiplying 4-digit numbers rather quickly. But tallying never seemed useful except while grading exams -- during which my brain populates a lookup table over the course of an hour, and then I can tally small sums without hesitation. But after that day of grading, the lookup table is flushed for more important uses of short term memory.
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  > Do not show restraint, and neither will I. For I am a mathematician, not a fucking calculator. I don't expect mathematicians to be lightning calculators, but expressing awe at grade-school arithmetic is a bit much.
  - klyrs 2y ago
    It sounds like your rapidity was found remarkable. Not everybody has that. Not all mathematicians have that. Perhaps respect was due.
anon291 2y ago
At the end of the day, writing code is not difficult. Understanding what it's actually doing is the hard part. Moreover, understanding how to write code that reasons about code (and higher) is when you start to need computer science, or really just axiomatic systems (math).
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  > At the end of the day, writing code is not difficult. Understanding what it's actually doing is the hard part. That sounds nice in the abstract, but in practice it's slow going trying to do web dev when your experience is nothing but command line C++.
  - anon291 2y ago
    I guess my honest answer is that web dev is very far removed in general from computer science and touches on design, marketing, etc, more than computer science. There's computer science in the back end and in the implementation of the front end, but like a significant portion of web dev is just aesthetics, not any kind of CS work. Perhaps there should be someone making that obvious at some point.
  - jimbokun 2y ago
    It's really not. So you are typing Javascript into your browser's console to see what it does instead of a text editor and compiler. The iterative process is still very similar. Write code -> get the syntax correct -> see if output matches your mental model -> repeat. You still want unit testing or some other system of reliably testing your code and detecting regressions. You need to use a distributed version control system to track your work over time and collaborate with others. You need to be able to figure out why your code is suddenly taking much longer to execute it than you thought it would. You need to figure out why the memory usage keeps going up and never comes down. You need to be able to gather requirements for the software you are writing. All of those things are skills you need to learn regardless of the specific programming language.
    - 2y ago

criddell 2y ago

I got my degree in the mid 90's and let me tell you - high school guidance counsellors in the 1980's had no clue at all what computer science was. I arrived at university expecting to be writing a lot of programs and was soon struggling with a heavy load of mathematics and proofs. Our introduction to computer programming professor made it clear that that class was the only one where we would be taught to program. Computer science, he said, was mostly done with paper and pencil. It wasn't quite true. We eventually did a lot of programming, but it was nothing like I was expecting.

hot_gril 2y ago
The problem with actually learning to code in school is that you'd spend a lot of time learning specifics that become outdated, which you could've self-studied anyway. Idk what it was like in the 1980s, but in 2015 our CS practice problems and tests were mostly pencil+paper, with actual code only used as a teaching tool in projects and some homework (more in lower divs).
- criddell 2y ago
  That’s why I think the old SICP-based curricula are so great. Learning Scheme isn’t really the point. It’s all about fundamentals of computation.
  - hot_gril 2y ago
    We used Scheme too, it was a good way of teaching general computation.
PhasmaFelis 2y ago
> high school guidance counsellors in the 1980's had no clue at all what computer science was. My problem was that the fucking college counselors didn't know either. When I signed up, I told the lady I wanted to be a computer programmer, and she said "You'll want computer science, then," and that wasn't true. The CS program was only interested in teaching me how to be a CS professor. A few years in I was scouring the course lists for classes on graphics, web, anything with a GUI even, and there was nothing. It was 100% command line C++, and they didn't even bother teaching us about IDEs and debuggers. Just Telnet, vi, g++. It was like taking a pure math degree to become an architect.
- jimbokun 2y ago
  > Just Telnet, vi, g++. Those have absolutely stood the test of time than any specific IDE or debugger.
  - criddell 2y ago
    That doesn't necessarily make them a great choice for teaching. A '57 Chevy has stood the test of time, but a modern car with an automatic transmission, power steering, power brakes, and air bags is probably a better choice for a driving school today.

klyrs 2y ago

> Dude was a math grad student. I narrowly restrained myself from saying ... Do not show restraint, and neither will I. For I am a mathematician, not a fucking calculator. But once, early in undergrad, I was capable of multiplying 4-digit numbers rather quickly. But tallying never seemed useful except while grading exams -- during which my brain populates a lookup table over the course of an hour, and then I can tally small sums without hesitation. But after that day of grading, the lookup table is flushed for more important uses of short term memory.

PhasmaFelis 2y ago
> Do not show restraint, and neither will I. For I am a mathematician, not a fucking calculator. I don't expect mathematicians to be lightning calculators, but expressing awe at grade-school arithmetic is a bit much.
- klyrs 2y ago
  It sounds like your rapidity was found remarkable. Not everybody has that. Not all mathematicians have that. Perhaps respect was due.

anon291 2y ago

At the end of the day, writing code is not difficult. Understanding what it's actually doing is the hard part. Moreover, understanding how to write code that reasons about code (and higher) is when you start to need computer science, or really just axiomatic systems (math).

PhasmaFelis 2y ago
> At the end of the day, writing code is not difficult. Understanding what it's actually doing is the hard part. That sounds nice in the abstract, but in practice it's slow going trying to do web dev when your experience is nothing but command line C++.
- anon291 2y ago
  I guess my honest answer is that web dev is very far removed in general from computer science and touches on design, marketing, etc, more than computer science. There's computer science in the back end and in the implementation of the front end, but like a significant portion of web dev is just aesthetics, not any kind of CS work. Perhaps there should be someone making that obvious at some point.
- jimbokun 2y ago
  It's really not. So you are typing Javascript into your browser's console to see what it does instead of a text editor and compiler. The iterative process is still very similar. Write code -> get the syntax correct -> see if output matches your mental model -> repeat. You still want unit testing or some other system of reliably testing your code and detecting regressions. You need to use a distributed version control system to track your work over time and collaborate with others. You need to be able to figure out why your code is suddenly taking much longer to execute it than you thought it would. You need to figure out why the memory usage keeps going up and never comes down. You need to be able to gather requirements for the software you are writing. All of those things are skills you need to learn regardless of the specific programming language.
  - 2y ago