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I'm yet to see a Django based website that outgrows any old rdbms for auth. Care to back up your claim that it's bad? Same for admin. You do realize that Django

I'm yet to see a Django based website that outgrows any old rdbms for auth. Care to back up your claim that it's bad? Same for admin. You do realize that Django's admin is just a search result of objects defined in its ORM, and that objects defined in its ORM are very obviously stored in an rdb - right? What would you like admin to use for managing data stored in an rdb? There's barely anything other than the models being managed that touches the database. Edit: just before my comment gets skewed, my question is: why would you ever use django for a website big enough to warrant this sort of worry? Let's recap: big websites make money which is used to hire coders. Those people are at that point probably porting your website to Agda, or some other cloudscale technology. Sounds like you're the same kind of person who complains that Bash doesn't support OpenMPI and that JavaScript doesn't do fib() well enough and that this here carpentry hammer can't break diamond. Wrong application, dude. Django is for medium-small websites, not for your Cloneddit, Clonebook, CloneSpace, or news.yclonebinator.com; get a different hammer.

espeed 14y ago
It looks like you're new here. Make sure you understand the context before you go trolling else you might be mistaken for a chatterbot with all the non sequiturs.
- cheatercheater 14y ago
  I'm not new to Django or programming in general, though. Making generic statements like your original post and catering to hip trends is one thing, backing up your bs is another. Obviously you can't answer the direct and very simple questions I stated, so you resort to pointing out your paltry 3.79 karma average in an attempt to sage me. Nice.
  - espeed 14y ago
    My comment was about simplicity and paradigms, with allusions to Thomas Khun's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Rev...). You must have missed that because you're trying to pick a fight about scalability, which has nothing to do with my original comment. Most of my work is with graphs so, for example, if you want to use a graph database to build a social graph with a Bayesian network, you wouldn't use most of Django's components such as auth and admin because they're tied to the ORM -- most of Django would just get in your way. It has nothing to with a Django-based site "outgrowing" auth. Try to break out of your relational mindset and understand the thread before you decide to go off. And regarding my "paltry 3.79 karma average," you do realize the median for the leaderboard (http://news.ycombinator.com/leaders http://news.ycombinator.com/leaders) is 3.975, right? Again, know what you're talking about.
    - cheatercheater 14y ago
      Given a very specific need of working with a bayesian network based on a social graph, i can see how your point was almost-valid. However, there's no mention of this sort of thing in your top post. The original link is about breaking up web apps into services, a'la amazon. I think it is you who does not understand the topic at hand, but that's a fairly trite way of argumentation, so let's just say that you didn't mention your very specific needs which were needed to appreciate just why not using an SQL db for auth is simpler. The fact is that it's probably not, it's just that it fits your solution better, so the total expense is lower. Having auth or admin backed by an rdb is not more expensive, auth supporting your idea or admin supporting your idea which are two executions of the concept that are very unusual compared to what is normally done with Django. Again, you're complaining your hammer can't be used to screw in things. Get the right tool, or if it doesn't exist make it. Django is not the right tool. So the whole thing is a composition of "why didn't you say so" and barking up the wrong tree. Of course, the lack of actual motivation in your top post can be explained through being inarticulate as in the paragraph above; it can also be explained by you trying to mesh together a few easy and hip claims. The later motivation could well be something you worked hard to muster up only after initial critique, and given that its connection to the top post hinged on a shaky premise I think that's what has happened here. Regarding your "paltry 3.79 karma average", the leaderboard is sorted by karma amount, not karma average. There are people on that list who have about 10x as much karma average as you do. And even the guy with the least karma on that list still has over 4x as much karma as you do. Well done computing the median of a biased subset of people. Biased because it selects people with the largest amount of points which easily comes at the expense of post quality. Please read about the bias of controlled, not-randomized studies before you go throwing around statistics you can't interpret. I suggest looking at the tree graph found on page 7 of "Statistics" by Freedman, Pisani, Purves, since you like graphs so much. Coming up with meaningless numbers will only shut up someone troubled by innumeracy, and I am not affected.
      - espeed 14y ago
        Damian, I think I see the disconnect here. The OP/thread is part of an ongoing conversation about the Python community at large and Django's stronghold on the community mindshare because a large portion of development resources goes toward the Django platform rather than to decoupled, external libraries (as noted in the talk). Most new Python Web developers choose Django as the default option because that's where the mindshare is (hence the repeated "we'll use Django, of course" in the slides), and Django's design and momentum lock the Python community into a certain paradigm, even though new paradigms are emerging. Kenneth's talk, my comments, and similar comments by people like Mike Bayer (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4079892 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4079892) were about breaking that stronghold. My example regarding graphs was just an example for you, but my original comment was about the bigger picture. BTW you were the one throwing around karma average. Have you looked at yours, and are you aware how it's calculated? -- it's not really a good indicator to use when trying to discredit someone.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

espeed 14y ago

It looks like you're new here. Make sure you understand the context before you go trolling else you might be mistaken for a chatterbot with all the non sequiturs.

cheatercheater 14y ago
I'm not new to Django or programming in general, though. Making generic statements like your original post and catering to hip trends is one thing, backing up your bs is another. Obviously you can't answer the direct and very simple questions I stated, so you resort to pointing out your paltry 3.79 karma average in an attempt to sage me. Nice.
- espeed 14y ago
  My comment was about simplicity and paradigms, with allusions to Thomas Khun's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Rev...). You must have missed that because you're trying to pick a fight about scalability, which has nothing to do with my original comment. Most of my work is with graphs so, for example, if you want to use a graph database to build a social graph with a Bayesian network, you wouldn't use most of Django's components such as auth and admin because they're tied to the ORM -- most of Django would just get in your way. It has nothing to with a Django-based site "outgrowing" auth. Try to break out of your relational mindset and understand the thread before you decide to go off. And regarding my "paltry 3.79 karma average," you do realize the median for the leaderboard (http://news.ycombinator.com/leaders http://news.ycombinator.com/leaders) is 3.975, right? Again, know what you're talking about.
  - cheatercheater 14y ago
    Given a very specific need of working with a bayesian network based on a social graph, i can see how your point was almost-valid. However, there's no mention of this sort of thing in your top post. The original link is about breaking up web apps into services, a'la amazon. I think it is you who does not understand the topic at hand, but that's a fairly trite way of argumentation, so let's just say that you didn't mention your very specific needs which were needed to appreciate just why not using an SQL db for auth is simpler. The fact is that it's probably not, it's just that it fits your solution better, so the total expense is lower. Having auth or admin backed by an rdb is not more expensive, auth supporting your idea or admin supporting your idea which are two executions of the concept that are very unusual compared to what is normally done with Django. Again, you're complaining your hammer can't be used to screw in things. Get the right tool, or if it doesn't exist make it. Django is not the right tool. So the whole thing is a composition of "why didn't you say so" and barking up the wrong tree. Of course, the lack of actual motivation in your top post can be explained through being inarticulate as in the paragraph above; it can also be explained by you trying to mesh together a few easy and hip claims. The later motivation could well be something you worked hard to muster up only after initial critique, and given that its connection to the top post hinged on a shaky premise I think that's what has happened here. Regarding your "paltry 3.79 karma average", the leaderboard is sorted by karma amount, not karma average. There are people on that list who have about 10x as much karma average as you do. And even the guy with the least karma on that list still has over 4x as much karma as you do. Well done computing the median of a biased subset of people. Biased because it selects people with the largest amount of points which easily comes at the expense of post quality. Please read about the bias of controlled, not-randomized studies before you go throwing around statistics you can't interpret. I suggest looking at the tree graph found on page 7 of "Statistics" by Freedman, Pisani, Purves, since you like graphs so much. Coming up with meaningless numbers will only shut up someone troubled by innumeracy, and I am not affected.
    - espeed 14y ago
      Damian, I think I see the disconnect here. The OP/thread is part of an ongoing conversation about the Python community at large and Django's stronghold on the community mindshare because a large portion of development resources goes toward the Django platform rather than to decoupled, external libraries (as noted in the talk). Most new Python Web developers choose Django as the default option because that's where the mindshare is (hence the repeated "we'll use Django, of course" in the slides), and Django's design and momentum lock the Python community into a certain paradigm, even though new paradigms are emerging. Kenneth's talk, my comments, and similar comments by people like Mike Bayer (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4079892 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4079892) were about breaking that stronghold. My example regarding graphs was just an example for you, but my original comment was about the bigger picture. BTW you were the one throwing around karma average. Have you looked at yours, and are you aware how it's calculated? -- it's not really a good indicator to use when trying to discredit someone.
deleted 14y ago
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