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I can understand why a bag that has been hand sewn by skilled artisans in some tiny town in Italy (say) might be expensive. Skills take time to learn, and the l

I can understand why a bag that has been hand sewn by skilled artisans in some tiny town in Italy (say) might be expensive. Skills take time to learn, and the labor is costly. (The leather itself seems to be a negligible fraction of the cost of production.) What I dont get is what stops Chinese manufacturers from recruiting equally skilled local artisans in Asia to create their own luxury brands, and what stops Hermès from outsourcing their own bag manufacturing to those artisans in China instead or France or Italy. Its not like China doesnt have a rich craft tradition. Do those domestic luxury brands exist? If so, why arent they sold for export?

ceejayoz 2y ago
> What I dont get is what stops Chinese manufacturers from recruiting equally skilled local artisans in Asia to create their own luxury brands, and what stops Hermès from outsourcing their own bag manufacturing to those artisans in China instead or France or Italy. A bag of this sort gets dramatically less valuable to the clientele if you cut the price by half. They don't want a cheaper version. If anything, they want it more expensive.
- caycep 2y ago
  the French are good at finding answers to these questions, often to the benefit of themselves...see https://atelierwen.com https://atelierwen.com
- newsclues 2y ago
  Yeah, luxury bags aren’t about buying a bag but owning an object that signals status. Making it cheaper or local or available to more people is not the goal.
  - roncesvalles 2y ago
    Beyond a certain price, all goods become jewelry.
- jotux 2y ago
  >A bag of this sort gets dramatically less valuable to the clientele if you cut the price by half. They don't want a cheaper version. If anything, they want it more expensive. There's a name for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
moandcompany 2y ago
On a past trip to Paris and Florence, I wondered why there were so many non-tourist Chinese living in the region. It turns out... Many of those "Made in Italy" luxury goods are made by skilled Chinese artisans (in Italy). The value of those "brands" are based on perception and the existing brands have put a lot of work into cultivating their brands historically. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-wo... https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/inexpensive-immigrant-labor-used-for-chanel-made-in-italy-handbags-the-new-yorker-reports.990924/ https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/inexpensive-immigrant-la... On a side note, this also applies to some "Made in America" brands too. Some of my favorite American brands used to host factory tours for their customers -- they tended to have a majority if not all southeast/east Asian workers making their garments and bags.
- throwadobe 2y ago
  Also interestingly Italy was basically the 2nd country hit with a massive spike in Covid cases right when the pandemic hit, as there had been some leather/fabric trade show with participants flying to and fro (I don't recall the specifics)
  - burningChrome 2y ago
    I remember reading it was "undocumented" Chinese nationals who were traveling back and forth between China and Italy. One of Italy's largest textile factories is literally within miles of the Wuhan lab and many speculated that many of the workers were moving back and forth and brought the virus from the factory to Italy. But you are correct in the fact there is no denying Italy was hit very early on, well before many realized what was going on. I remember seeing an article were Italian doctors were concerned they had five deaths in a single weekend from new strain of influenza they hadn't seen before.
- lupire 2y ago
  Are you saying that people living in America who (or whose parents) were born in China wouldn't be American?
nineplay 2y ago
It's seemed to me that there's a specific fast/good/cheap rule for consumer products. 1. High quality 2. Pays lower-level employees fairly 3. Low cost Pick 2. Consumers will complain that they can't get all three and frequently blame assorted factors such as price-gouging and CEO pay but I suspect that those rarely make as much of a difference as consumers hope.
nemothekid 2y ago
>Do those domestic luxury brands exist? If so, why arent they sold for export? The value of a luxury brand is in the history, reputation and social proof. I bet there will be Chinese luxury brands eventually, only after decades of cultural export. You can argue that South Korea "suffers" from the same problem as well, with SK being relatively new on the global stage. However Japan has luxury brands (like Commes Des Garcons, Issey Miyaki) that were established 50-60 years ago.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  it also depends on which luxuries market you're targeting. South Korea is making a big splash in cosmetics, for example, but has never been a particularly large textile hub.
jsmith99 2y ago
It’s very hard to compete on quality in leather bags without a reputation and a good bricks and mortar network because online customers have no way to tell the quality and even in person customers probably lack the knowledge - so from the producers perspective why bother spending more?
brandall10 2y ago
This does happen to an extent with smaller upstart brands. For instance, in men's shoes, Grant Stone made a name for themself offering a very similar, albeit even better built, product to Alden for roughly half the price. In guitars we see companies like Eastman doing a similar labor arbitrage producing products similar to Martin and Gibson. The key though are price savings. These could be argued to be 'luxury' to an extent in that they're notably quality products, but the attraction is the savings from labor passed onto the customer. The type of luxury we're dealing with for the Birkin's of the world is based on brand cache more than anything else. Price is simply not a factor, so it doesn't make any sense to take measures to reduce it. Worse, the moment a brand gives a hint that they're doing anything remotely cost cutting is going to be catastrophic as it goes against their 'spare no expense' mantra.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
quickthrowman 2y ago
> What I dont get is what stops Chinese manufacturers from recruiting equally skilled local artisans in Asia to create their own luxury brands, Luxury brands are selling a story, and that story is generally ‘European, old (100+ years)’. Companies like Rolex and Hermes have perfected this, upstart luxury brands from China would need a good 20+ years or genius marketing to start building the type of brand that can sell a story.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  It's certainly not impossible though, we now have luxury Japanese brands. I think a bigger struggle for any Chinese brand would probably be rampant counterfeiting; for luxury goods to prosper, customers need to have a way to ensure they're getting the real deal. And China currently accounts for 75% of counterfeit goods by value seized at US ports.
WoahNoun 2y ago
I've bought many leather wallets in the US even from seemingly upscale places like Nordstrom's. They all kinda fell apart after a few years. I bought a leather wallet in Italy near the Trevi Fountain for roughly the same price almost decade ago and it's by far the best wallet I've ever owned. It's even aged in a nice way. https://lasellaroma.it/product/wallet-cod-5026/ https://lasellaroma.it/product/wallet-cod-5026/
GuB-42 2y ago
Because "made in China" doesn't sell. A quality Chinese manufacturer could do a quality bag, but it would sell as just a good bag, with a price reflecting the quality of the materials and workmanship that went into it. I can imagine a lawyer, doctor, etc... buying such a bag as it is a work tool that will see heavy use and it is important for the image to have a reasonably nice looking bag. But luxury is more than that, you buy a story and exclusivity. You want to think you are one of the few, you want to think about the small town in Italy, get the idea that by your purchase you contribute to a tradition, it has to be special, and China can't deliver that. At least not for handbags, I guess it is a different story for, say, ceramics, where China has a recognized tradition.

ceejayoz 2y ago

> What I dont get is what stops Chinese manufacturers from recruiting equally skilled local artisans in Asia to create their own luxury brands, and what stops Hermès from outsourcing their own bag manufacturing to those artisans in China instead or France or Italy. A bag of this sort gets dramatically less valuable to the clientele if you cut the price by half. They don't want a cheaper version. If anything, they want it more expensive.

caycep 2y ago
the French are good at finding answers to these questions, often to the benefit of themselves...see https://atelierwen.com https://atelierwen.com
newsclues 2y ago
Yeah, luxury bags aren’t about buying a bag but owning an object that signals status. Making it cheaper or local or available to more people is not the goal.
- roncesvalles 2y ago
  Beyond a certain price, all goods become jewelry.
jotux 2y ago
>A bag of this sort gets dramatically less valuable to the clientele if you cut the price by half. They don't want a cheaper version. If anything, they want it more expensive. There's a name for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

moandcompany 2y ago

On a past trip to Paris and Florence, I wondered why there were so many non-tourist Chinese living in the region. It turns out... Many of those "Made in Italy" luxury goods are made by skilled Chinese artisans (in Italy). The value of those "brands" are based on perception and the existing brands have put a lot of work into cultivating their brands historically. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-wo... https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/inexpensive-immigrant-labor-used-for-chanel-made-in-italy-handbags-the-new-yorker-reports.990924/ https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/inexpensive-immigrant-la... On a side note, this also applies to some "Made in America" brands too. Some of my favorite American brands used to host factory tours for their customers -- they tended to have a majority if not all southeast/east Asian workers making their garments and bags.

throwadobe 2y ago
Also interestingly Italy was basically the 2nd country hit with a massive spike in Covid cases right when the pandemic hit, as there had been some leather/fabric trade show with participants flying to and fro (I don't recall the specifics)
- burningChrome 2y ago
  I remember reading it was "undocumented" Chinese nationals who were traveling back and forth between China and Italy. One of Italy's largest textile factories is literally within miles of the Wuhan lab and many speculated that many of the workers were moving back and forth and brought the virus from the factory to Italy. But you are correct in the fact there is no denying Italy was hit very early on, well before many realized what was going on. I remember seeing an article were Italian doctors were concerned they had five deaths in a single weekend from new strain of influenza they hadn't seen before.
lupire 2y ago
Are you saying that people living in America who (or whose parents) were born in China wouldn't be American?

nineplay 2y ago

It's seemed to me that there's a specific fast/good/cheap rule for consumer products. 1. High quality 2. Pays lower-level employees fairly 3. Low cost Pick 2. Consumers will complain that they can't get all three and frequently blame assorted factors such as price-gouging and CEO pay but I suspect that those rarely make as much of a difference as consumers hope.

nemothekid 2y ago

>Do those domestic luxury brands exist? If so, why arent they sold for export? The value of a luxury brand is in the history, reputation and social proof. I bet there will be Chinese luxury brands eventually, only after decades of cultural export. You can argue that South Korea "suffers" from the same problem as well, with SK being relatively new on the global stage. However Japan has luxury brands (like Commes Des Garcons, Issey Miyaki) that were established 50-60 years ago.

bobthepanda 2y ago
it also depends on which luxuries market you're targeting. South Korea is making a big splash in cosmetics, for example, but has never been a particularly large textile hub.

jsmith99 2y ago

It’s very hard to compete on quality in leather bags without a reputation and a good bricks and mortar network because online customers have no way to tell the quality and even in person customers probably lack the knowledge - so from the producers perspective why bother spending more?

brandall10 2y ago

This does happen to an extent with smaller upstart brands. For instance, in men's shoes, Grant Stone made a name for themself offering a very similar, albeit even better built, product to Alden for roughly half the price. In guitars we see companies like Eastman doing a similar labor arbitrage producing products similar to Martin and Gibson. The key though are price savings. These could be argued to be 'luxury' to an extent in that they're notably quality products, but the attraction is the savings from labor passed onto the customer. The type of luxury we're dealing with for the Birkin's of the world is based on brand cache more than anything else. Price is simply not a factor, so it doesn't make any sense to take measures to reduce it. Worse, the moment a brand gives a hint that they're doing anything remotely cost cutting is going to be catastrophic as it goes against their 'spare no expense' mantra.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

quickthrowman 2y ago

> What I dont get is what stops Chinese manufacturers from recruiting equally skilled local artisans in Asia to create their own luxury brands, Luxury brands are selling a story, and that story is generally ‘European, old (100+ years)’. Companies like Rolex and Hermes have perfected this, upstart luxury brands from China would need a good 20+ years or genius marketing to start building the type of brand that can sell a story.

bobthepanda 2y ago
It's certainly not impossible though, we now have luxury Japanese brands. I think a bigger struggle for any Chinese brand would probably be rampant counterfeiting; for luxury goods to prosper, customers need to have a way to ensure they're getting the real deal. And China currently accounts for 75% of counterfeit goods by value seized at US ports.

WoahNoun 2y ago

I've bought many leather wallets in the US even from seemingly upscale places like Nordstrom's. They all kinda fell apart after a few years. I bought a leather wallet in Italy near the Trevi Fountain for roughly the same price almost decade ago and it's by far the best wallet I've ever owned. It's even aged in a nice way. https://lasellaroma.it/product/wallet-cod-5026/ https://lasellaroma.it/product/wallet-cod-5026/

GuB-42 2y ago

Because "made in China" doesn't sell. A quality Chinese manufacturer could do a quality bag, but it would sell as just a good bag, with a price reflecting the quality of the materials and workmanship that went into it. I can imagine a lawyer, doctor, etc... buying such a bag as it is a work tool that will see heavy use and it is important for the image to have a reasonably nice looking bag. But luxury is more than that, you buy a story and exclusivity. You want to think you are one of the few, you want to think about the small town in Italy, get the idea that by your purchase you contribute to a tradition, it has to be special, and China can't deliver that. At least not for handbags, I guess it is a different story for, say, ceramics, where China has a recognized tradition.