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> T=Not allowing link out and price discovery is not only anti-market, it's anti-poor. What shops list their own markup? If I go to a supermarket I don't see w

> T=Not allowing link out and price discovery is not only anti-market, it's anti-poor. What shops list their own markup? If I go to a supermarket I don't see what the markup is the shop adds. I just see the price here vs the price there. I did that when I didn't have any money as well. It seems to work.

rahkiin 2y ago
I also do not see where else I can buy it, or prices of other shops for the same product. I also do not see products in shop A tell me I should go to shop B instead. Wasn’t the shop model what they copied?
- madeofpalk 2y ago
  It's hard to draw analogies to the real world. It's like if you bought a dishwasher and Best Buy forced the manufacturer to force the user to buy detergent from their store, and forbid the manufacturer from telling the user they can get cheaper detergent elsewhere.
- alkonaut 2y ago
  Apples AppStore isn't the shop, it's street where all the shops are. They have decided that no consumer walking this street should know which shops exist or what their prices are. These analogies break down real quick, but the center of the argument is that companies that grow too large can become "the market" and not "one actor on the market".
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    That's what I don't understand: what price can't I discover? Things like: how much Netflix costs, or how much something on Amazon costs, or how much a NYT subscription costs? I'm struggling to think of an example of what you're saying.
    - madeofpalk 2y ago
      You cannot sign up for Netlifx on an iPhone, because Netflix either must make 30% less giving that cut to Apple, or charge 30% more. This is even more egregious when it comes to Spotify, which is unable to compete evenly with Apple Music. I wonder if Apple Music has to give away 30% of it's revenue to a payment processor....
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        Okay, but I can see the price of Netflix and Spotify. Or are the prices different on iPhone? I don't have one, so I'm only going on what you're saying.
        madeofpalk 2y ago
        No, the impact of Apple's rules is that you cannot see the price of Netflix in the Netflix app, because Netflix doesn't want to use Apple's IAP and give them whatever % cut. If Netflix did offer in-app subscription (through Apple), and charged it at a higher rate to account for Apple's cut, it would be forbidden from telling it's more expensive because Apple takes a cut, or that it's available for cheaper on their website. Apple even forbids Netflix emailing their customer after signup telling them it's cheaper on their website.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Okay - but I'm genuinely struggling to see an example. Is the worst symptom of this issue that I'm sent to sign up on an open platform like the Web?
        Liquid_Fire 2y ago
        From my understanding (I also don't have an iPhone), you're not sent anywhere, because Netflix were forbidden from telling you to go sign up on their website. There was just no sign up button, and an implicit assumption that you would somehow figure out that you need to open up netflix.com in the browser and subscribe there. I think that has changed now for Netflix in particular, but not for some other types of apps?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
xxs 2y ago
You can't compare appstore with other shops, though. It's the only shop that can possible exist, so it faces no competition at any rate by design.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I thought EU law is already going to allow for alternative app stores on iOS?
  - zuppy 2y ago
    the law allows, the implementation that apple took, doesn’t in reality. yes, techinically it is possible, but with the associated cost only some big players can do it. there’s no room for free apps when the store has to pay 50 cents per user after a small threshold.
troupo 2y ago
Go to a mall. You'll see shops happily advertising their stuff, directing people to their websites, asking people to download their apps etc.
kvdveer 2y ago
When the markup is external, this is quite common: e.g. shipping, taxes, etc.
- zeusk 2y ago
  When was the last time your grocer explicitly listed out the shipping cost of your globalized shopping cart? Did it show shipping of orange concentrate from florida? or grains from Iowa?
  - poincaredisk 2y ago
    I think you are intentionally misinterpreting parent. When you buy something online, shipping is almost always a separate item on the bill (unless it's free). Taxes are also clearly specified on the invoice. Food delivery apps and Airbnb take it to the extreme, by charging a relatively small price and then adding surcharges. Uber breaks down price into the driver price, marketplace fee, taxes, and sometimes congestion fees. So yes, breaking down price is common.
    - zeusk 2y ago
      They're only showing you last mile delivery fees. Don't mistake for once that your food is grown in the city you live in.
pjc50 2y ago
The model breaks down because there is only one supermarket. Well, at least until the EU mandates alternate app stores without Apple handicapping them.
orwin 2y ago
Every shops allow price discovery, and none will charge me if I go in a physical shop to see what a product looks like in real life, then command it on internet. In fact, when I was a student, almost everyone I knew did that, as at that time, internet prices were a lot lower (and we had no money). At that time I even went in different supermarkets to check foodstuff promos and sometime bought ham in a place, lettuce and mayo in another, and bread at another, on the same day. Not allowing to do that is anti-poor, I'll say it again. Imagine that some people have only one way to access internet, and it's their phone on public wifi. What Apple is doing should be punished.

rahkiin 2y ago

I also do not see where else I can buy it, or prices of other shops for the same product. I also do not see products in shop A tell me I should go to shop B instead. Wasn’t the shop model what they copied?

madeofpalk 2y ago
It's hard to draw analogies to the real world. It's like if you bought a dishwasher and Best Buy forced the manufacturer to force the user to buy detergent from their store, and forbid the manufacturer from telling the user they can get cheaper detergent elsewhere.
alkonaut 2y ago
Apples AppStore isn't the shop, it's street where all the shops are. They have decided that no consumer walking this street should know which shops exist or what their prices are. These analogies break down real quick, but the center of the argument is that companies that grow too large can become "the market" and not "one actor on the market".
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  That's what I don't understand: what price can't I discover? Things like: how much Netflix costs, or how much something on Amazon costs, or how much a NYT subscription costs? I'm struggling to think of an example of what you're saying.
  - madeofpalk 2y ago
    You cannot sign up for Netlifx on an iPhone, because Netflix either must make 30% less giving that cut to Apple, or charge 30% more. This is even more egregious when it comes to Spotify, which is unable to compete evenly with Apple Music. I wonder if Apple Music has to give away 30% of it's revenue to a payment processor....
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Okay, but I can see the price of Netflix and Spotify. Or are the prices different on iPhone? I don't have one, so I'm only going on what you're saying.
      - madeofpalk 2y ago
        No, the impact of Apple's rules is that you cannot see the price of Netflix in the Netflix app, because Netflix doesn't want to use Apple's IAP and give them whatever % cut. If Netflix did offer in-app subscription (through Apple), and charged it at a higher rate to account for Apple's cut, it would be forbidden from telling it's more expensive because Apple takes a cut, or that it's available for cheaper on their website. Apple even forbids Netflix emailing their customer after signup telling them it's cheaper on their website.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Okay - but I'm genuinely struggling to see an example. Is the worst symptom of this issue that I'm sent to sign up on an open platform like the Web?
        Liquid_Fire 2y ago
        From my understanding (I also don't have an iPhone), you're not sent anywhere, because Netflix were forbidden from telling you to go sign up on their website. There was just no sign up button, and an implicit assumption that you would somehow figure out that you need to open up netflix.com in the browser and subscribe there. I think that has changed now for Netflix in particular, but not for some other types of apps?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

xxs 2y ago

You can't compare appstore with other shops, though. It's the only shop that can possible exist, so it faces no competition at any rate by design.

bee_rider 2y ago
I thought EU law is already going to allow for alternative app stores on iOS?
- zuppy 2y ago
  the law allows, the implementation that apple took, doesn’t in reality. yes, techinically it is possible, but with the associated cost only some big players can do it. there’s no room for free apps when the store has to pay 50 cents per user after a small threshold.

troupo 2y ago

Go to a mall. You'll see shops happily advertising their stuff, directing people to their websites, asking people to download their apps etc.

kvdveer 2y ago

When the markup is external, this is quite common: e.g. shipping, taxes, etc.

zeusk 2y ago
When was the last time your grocer explicitly listed out the shipping cost of your globalized shopping cart? Did it show shipping of orange concentrate from florida? or grains from Iowa?
- poincaredisk 2y ago
  I think you are intentionally misinterpreting parent. When you buy something online, shipping is almost always a separate item on the bill (unless it's free). Taxes are also clearly specified on the invoice. Food delivery apps and Airbnb take it to the extreme, by charging a relatively small price and then adding surcharges. Uber breaks down price into the driver price, marketplace fee, taxes, and sometimes congestion fees. So yes, breaking down price is common.
  - zeusk 2y ago
    They're only showing you last mile delivery fees. Don't mistake for once that your food is grown in the city you live in.

pjc50 2y ago

The model breaks down because there is only one supermarket. Well, at least until the EU mandates alternate app stores without Apple handicapping them.

orwin 2y ago

Every shops allow price discovery, and none will charge me if I go in a physical shop to see what a product looks like in real life, then command it on internet. In fact, when I was a student, almost everyone I knew did that, as at that time, internet prices were a lot lower (and we had no money). At that time I even went in different supermarkets to check foodstuff promos and sometime bought ham in a place, lettuce and mayo in another, and bread at another, on the same day. Not allowing to do that is anti-poor, I'll say it again. Imagine that some people have only one way to access internet, and it's their phone on public wifi. What Apple is doing should be punished.