3 ms·

This is a huge self-own. Would this ever happen to a Chinese manufacturer?

by brcmthrowaway 2y ago

malermeister 2y ago
Ask Jack Ma what happens when Chinese CEOs fuck around.
- lukan 2y ago
  Even though in this case "fucking around" meant not potential manslaughter, but not being 100% under control of the party.
scarmig 2y ago
China is not what I'd call... Lax when it comes to corporate malfeasance. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes...
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  With the Boeing 737 MAX, it was actually the Chinese Civil Aviation Administration that first decided to ground the plane. The American FAA was reluctant to ground the plane, and only did so after most of the rest of the world had done so. This is a case of American regulators putting an American company's business interests above safety. If it had been a foreign aircraft manufacturer, I doubt the FAA would have waited to ground the planes.
- dralley 2y ago
  How lax they are is more a function of closeness to the powerful factions of the CCP than the scale of malfeasance.
  - scarmig 2y ago
    Closeness to power generally seems to be a source of laxness, across many different societies.
badcppdev 2y ago
Do you know what happens to Chinese citizens who displease the government/party? https://www.si.com/tennis/2023/03/29/peng-shuai-wta-principle-or-profit-daily-cover https://www.si.com/tennis/2023/03/29/peng-shuai-wta-principl... https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/chinas-sacked-foreign-minister-qin-gang-resigns-from-parliament-after-long-absence-from-public-view/article67893136.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/chinas-sacked-fo...
AdamN 2y ago
If the US does not get Boeing under control, trust in all US companies will go down further. It makes a ton of sense, just from a self interested financial point of view, for the US to fix Boeing with compulsion - even if it means breaking it up and putting executives in prison.
- stoperaticless 2y ago
  While my sense of justice would be tickled by executives in prison, it is probably not a required condition to improve Boring situation.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
I regularly see this kind of logic, that in order to face off China we should let our leaders/corporations exploit workers, pollute, commit crimes and behave even worse than China. I don’t know what is the name for this faulty programming but it is very disturbing. I guess this is some kind of default behaviour of nationalism?
- dotancohen 2y ago
  It's called leveling the playing field. Done by either raising the low parts, or shaving the high parts. Not everybody agrees about the "fairness" of either approach, especially when the goal is to make the playing field "fair".
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    How is levelling free market if it de-levels the playing field between me and Boeing
    - dotancohen 2y ago
      The playing field is level. With a level playing field, the multi-billion dollar corporation will obviously trample the individual. They are more powerful than you.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  It's a manipulation technique. Not for US citizens, but citizens of other corrupt countries. Imagine that you live in a country where everyone is corrupt and everyone lies. If you don't lie you're an idiot. Then you read news about horrible US government failures. If the problems are so large that they cannot possibly keep lying and they openly admit to their failures, then what fucked up things still are there that they don't admit to doing? China at least manages to keep it shush. Therefore, whatever they do, shit at least doesn't hit the fan. It's very difficult to imagine that a different society might have different standards regarding things such as transparency.
xcv123 2y ago
In China the CEO would be executed by firing squad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanlu_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanlu_Group "On 22 January 2009, Tian was sentenced to life imprisonment, while other Sanlu executives received sentences of five to fifteen years. Two other men were sentenced to death" Changsheng Biotech Vaccine Scandal (2018): The chairwoman of Changsheng Biotech, Gao Junfang, was sentenced to 12 years in prison. Kanghui Pharmaceutical Case (2007): The general manager, Ni Chunlin, was sentenced to life imprisonment. Qiqihar No. 2 Pharmaceutical Case (2006): The factory director received a 7-year prison sentence. Shanghai Hualian Pharmaceutical Case (2007): Two executives were sentenced to death (later commuted to life imprisonment).
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  Those are much more serious cases though. They aren't death sentences due to messing up airplanes due to mismanagement or cost cutting, but actually poisoning people on a mass scale or knowingly making bad drugs. It's not comparable. Those things are more like the Sackler opioid case.
  - xcv123 2y ago
    It is comparable. Boeing intentionally and criminally withheld information from regulators. They knew that MCAS would not be approved by regulators, intentionally ignored safety and quality concerns, then released it to the public. It was a criminal act which caused the death of hundreds of people and destroyed the reputation of the largest exporter in the US. If the equivalent happened in China there would be severe consequences. The CCP would not tolerate losing the reputation of their largest export industry. China is run by the CCP, not company executives. The executives would be thrown under the bus without hesitation.
    - impossiblefork 2y ago
      I suppose I shouldn't have said 'not comparable' because everything is comparable, but I still think what the Chinese nationals did to get life terms and executions was much more severe criminality. A couple of hundreds dead due to bad engineering is better than outright poisoning people by substitutions or killing people on a mass scale with bad drugs.

This is a huge self-own. Would this ever happen to a Chinese manufacturer?

malermeister 2y ago

Ask Jack Ma what happens when Chinese CEOs fuck around.

lukan 2y ago
Even though in this case "fucking around" meant not potential manslaughter, but not being 100% under control of the party.

scarmig 2y ago

China is not what I'd call... Lax when it comes to corporate malfeasance. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes...

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
With the Boeing 737 MAX, it was actually the Chinese Civil Aviation Administration that first decided to ground the plane. The American FAA was reluctant to ground the plane, and only did so after most of the rest of the world had done so. This is a case of American regulators putting an American company's business interests above safety. If it had been a foreign aircraft manufacturer, I doubt the FAA would have waited to ground the planes.
dralley 2y ago
How lax they are is more a function of closeness to the powerful factions of the CCP than the scale of malfeasance.
- scarmig 2y ago
  Closeness to power generally seems to be a source of laxness, across many different societies.

badcppdev 2y ago

Do you know what happens to Chinese citizens who displease the government/party? https://www.si.com/tennis/2023/03/29/peng-shuai-wta-principle-or-profit-daily-cover https://www.si.com/tennis/2023/03/29/peng-shuai-wta-principl... https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/chinas-sacked-foreign-minister-qin-gang-resigns-from-parliament-after-long-absence-from-public-view/article67893136.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/chinas-sacked-fo...

AdamN 2y ago

If the US does not get Boeing under control, trust in all US companies will go down further. It makes a ton of sense, just from a self interested financial point of view, for the US to fix Boeing with compulsion - even if it means breaking it up and putting executives in prison.

stoperaticless 2y ago
While my sense of justice would be tickled by executives in prison, it is probably not a required condition to improve Boring situation.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

I regularly see this kind of logic, that in order to face off China we should let our leaders/corporations exploit workers, pollute, commit crimes and behave even worse than China. I don’t know what is the name for this faulty programming but it is very disturbing. I guess this is some kind of default behaviour of nationalism?

dotancohen 2y ago
It's called leveling the playing field. Done by either raising the low parts, or shaving the high parts. Not everybody agrees about the "fairness" of either approach, especially when the goal is to make the playing field "fair".
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  How is levelling free market if it de-levels the playing field between me and Boeing
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    The playing field is level. With a level playing field, the multi-billion dollar corporation will obviously trample the individual. They are more powerful than you.
anal_reactor 2y ago
It's a manipulation technique. Not for US citizens, but citizens of other corrupt countries. Imagine that you live in a country where everyone is corrupt and everyone lies. If you don't lie you're an idiot. Then you read news about horrible US government failures. If the problems are so large that they cannot possibly keep lying and they openly admit to their failures, then what fucked up things still are there that they don't admit to doing? China at least manages to keep it shush. Therefore, whatever they do, shit at least doesn't hit the fan. It's very difficult to imagine that a different society might have different standards regarding things such as transparency.

xcv123 2y ago

In China the CEO would be executed by firing squad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanlu_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanlu_Group "On 22 January 2009, Tian was sentenced to life imprisonment, while other Sanlu executives received sentences of five to fifteen years. Two other men were sentenced to death" Changsheng Biotech Vaccine Scandal (2018): The chairwoman of Changsheng Biotech, Gao Junfang, was sentenced to 12 years in prison. Kanghui Pharmaceutical Case (2007): The general manager, Ni Chunlin, was sentenced to life imprisonment. Qiqihar No. 2 Pharmaceutical Case (2006): The factory director received a 7-year prison sentence. Shanghai Hualian Pharmaceutical Case (2007): Two executives were sentenced to death (later commuted to life imprisonment).

impossiblefork 2y ago
Those are much more serious cases though. They aren't death sentences due to messing up airplanes due to mismanagement or cost cutting, but actually poisoning people on a mass scale or knowingly making bad drugs. It's not comparable. Those things are more like the Sackler opioid case.
- xcv123 2y ago
  It is comparable. Boeing intentionally and criminally withheld information from regulators. They knew that MCAS would not be approved by regulators, intentionally ignored safety and quality concerns, then released it to the public. It was a criminal act which caused the death of hundreds of people and destroyed the reputation of the largest exporter in the US. If the equivalent happened in China there would be severe consequences. The CCP would not tolerate losing the reputation of their largest export industry. China is run by the CCP, not company executives. The executives would be thrown under the bus without hesitation.
  - impossiblefork 2y ago
    I suppose I shouldn't have said 'not comparable' because everything is comparable, but I still think what the Chinese nationals did to get life terms and executions was much more severe criminality. A couple of hundreds dead due to bad engineering is better than outright poisoning people by substitutions or killing people on a mass scale with bad drugs.