9 ms·

How to do the jhanas

78 points by mandliya 2y ago

3l3ktr4 2y ago
I've been meditating pretty consistently for the last year 20 min meditations or more every day and though I've put way more than the time the OP put in trying to achieve jhanas I couldn't even reach the first one. I wonder what I'm missing!
- dnissley 2y ago
  I went on a Jhourney retreat with about a year of daily practice under my belt. I didn't reach jhana, and was a bit discouraged after finding out that almost everyone else around me had! I think around 75% of those who attended based on my calculations. Including those with almost no background in meditation at all. But also some people who came to the retreat had already had access to these states. I do credit the retreat for reinvigorating my practice though, and reinforcing that jhana or no you should be aiming to be relaxed and joyful after most meditation sessions or you're probably doing it wrong.
- 3l3ktr4 2y ago
  I think this startup-y way of tapping into meditation i pretty silly but also, idk maybe it's the way for us nerds to achieve these things?
  - pas 2y ago
    there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. circumstances of course matter, but instruction, especially the interactivity is decisive. yes, there's a practice element, to do the dissociative steps well, to get the right body sensations amplified with the right mental ones, etc. the start-up-y way is not better or worse for you if it works. the traditional way(s) work vy constraining as much of the circumstances as possible, so the originating mind state is "exactly" as the one the instructor had.
    - kranner 2y ago
      I think the startuppy way might be a little worse, in terms of how it can set up more craving and comparison with others, particularly if you're convinced you need to experience the full Visuddhimagga jhanas to get the really real insight practice going, and others are ahead of you somehow. I've experienced both the Sutta jhanas (in a TWIM retreat) and the VM jhanas (spontaneously after a lot of practice). They're wonderful and the VM jhanas in particular really boost sensory clarity and concentration which is certainly helpful for insight practice, but a sustained practice or rather, sustained intention to practice well have been more helpful to me over the years.
    - 0x1ceb00da 2y ago
      > there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. This is just not true. There are athletes with sub 100ms reaction time. The average person is over twice of that. It only makes sense that there are meditative athletes whose abilities surpass those of the average guy.
      - saulpw 2y ago
        In your analogy, we are all capable of running (probably), even if some of us are better at it.
      - swayvil 2y ago
        The ancient meditation wizards of yore preferred to recruit those with "habitual one-pointed attention" (these days we call them aspergers etc). Because they are uncommonly good at concentration.
        jackdawipper 2y ago
        lol, aspergers et al, are the opposite to good at concentrating.
        swayvil 2y ago
        That is incorrect.
- sincerely 2y ago
  I'm in a similar boat. I wish it were possible to externally verify in some way. I'm a bit skeptical of how easily a lot of newcomers to meditation claim to have reached them.
  - lewispollard 2y ago
    Although I agree that a lot of people may be overblowing their experience, either by mistake, through ignorance, or else for clout/internet points, think about it this way: when the Buddha was alive, the jhanas were standard practice, and had been for as long as yogis could remember. The Buddhist teaching almost assumes a familiarity with the jhanas and doesn't really explicitly teach how to access them. The entire teaching is based on the Buddha learning the jhanas from various teachers of the time, mastering them, and eventually finding them unsatisfactory. Yogis who came to the Buddha seemed to already have an understanding and background with jhanas, which the Buddha then taught them to use to realise what he himself had realised. What this tells us is that jhanas aren't some kind of lofty, difficult to achieve thing that only a select few ever achieve; instead, it seems to suggest that it's something that's available to anyone with enough dedication and is something that transcends traditions or religions, and has been known about for millenia.
- zeroxfe 2y ago
  If you're a beginner, you'll need to work your way up to at least 45-minute sessions. You're not going to be able to enter jhanas in 20 minutes unless you're very experienced and entered them consistently for a long time. For me, it was when I got to 1 hour sessions when I started to experience the deep absorption for jhanas.
  - swayvil 2y ago
    I find that multiple sessions is the way to go. not necessarily longer. Like, dedicate 3 days to chill stuff (walking, cleaning...) and meditation. Meditate, say, 6 times a day for 20-30 minutes. That'll do it. Fasting helps too.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- __rito__ 2y ago
  It took me much more time (~3 years) than the author here. I meditated following a book. And the what is described here as J7/J8 happened while meditating. But, J9 happened where I didn't expect it. My dad learned yoga from a guru, and he taught me some Pranayama to ease my breathing, as I have chronic cold often. That works, but I experienced J9 (here) while doing those Pranayama rather than Sati meditation. I didn't expect it or was "trying" anything, but it happened there. The author sheds no light in their state of learning or lifestyle. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that they play significant role.. Following Buddhist eight fold path as much as you can, serving the needy, leading a mindful life, and knowing the basics of mythology, philosophy, etc. probably will help.
  - lewispollard 2y ago
    > The author sheds no light in their state of learning or lifestyle. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that they play significant role.. I think that's an excellent point, though the author sets up the article in a scientific way, describing the practice as mechanical - a lot of the ability to access these states comes from coming into it with a wholesome and cleaned up mind, which comes about through doing wholesome actions, saying wholesome things (and not lying), and generally the practice of "sense restraint" - not allowing unwholesome influences into your life. Otherwise, you sit down and your mind is a well of negative thoughts and feelings that completely cloud your ability to access jhana. Of course, if you're the sort of person that behaves, speaks and thinks that way in general, you may not realise that that's one of the main things that allow you to access the jhanas.
- cut3 2y ago
  Do it longer. 20 minutes is just a settling in period. The more you do it the better you get. Physical exercise first can help one mentally calm down quicker. Finally, studying others methods is helpful. The book "the six dharma gates to the sublime" was helpful for me personally for jhana practices, and there are lots of other great resources and teachers available if you look.
- jackdawipper 2y ago
  I spent two decades following this approach. I didnt know that I didnt know what meditating was until I did a 10 day silent Vipassana retreat. But even a decade into learning Vipassana I couldnt get the jhanas and took me two years pretty heavy practise for it to click. some of us just take a lot of work to get there. monkey brains maybe.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  For me a game changer was reading: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/ I moved from Transcendental Meditation (which I had learned previously) which doesn't quite get you into these states to concentration and insight according to this book and it got me there.
derrida 2y ago
It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase and cultivate wholesome states that are outside the sensory world. But the sort of description of so called "jhana" in the article misses it - it points to the feelings generated in the body. They are rather like a boat and its wake... the wake is the feelings but the boat is something else - they are the wholesome states. We don't focus on the feelings, rather keep driving the boat (focusing on our meditation object). Then ... boom... we suddenly hit a river bank and have no idea what happened. It's unmistakable. For instance with metta the boat would be the intention "may I be happy" the feelings are the by-product or wake. Jhana is proper like a boat that suddenly unexpectedly hits the shore... It rocks and blows the mind (and as the mind contains model of the world - it feels like the world shook a bit then froze). A good "geeks guide" is "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" written by someone who finished a physics degree at cambridge and spent 9 years with Ajahn Chah. If we instead mistake something else for "jhana" like some positive feels, we're going to be stuck cultivating a local maxima. It's not to say the practice is wrong, it's actually quite good. It's just not jhana. We should listen to the professional community just like we listen to the professionals of physics in academia, instead of some posts from people on the internet that have done a few 30 day retreats. But please do not call it jhana and have some humility ... these terms are central to some of the okdest institutions in the world and theres a professional community in the dharmic traditions who literally do this full time all over asia. If someone wants to hear a competent speaker who has done the necessary time and training at those institutions and is also trained in the conventional university system, someone like Ajahn Brahm (Theoretical Physics Cambridge) Beth Upton (Economics Cambridge) or Shalia Catherine or Sayadaw U Jagara
- dnissley 2y ago
  What do you think about twim jhanas, which are similarly "light"?
  - 2y ago
roenxi 2y ago
One of the interesting insights into society at large is that one of the big divisions of knowledge is into the pots of "benefits others that you know this" and "other". There is a lot of social effort put into spreading political memes (as the easiest example) because that will influence society in a way that is favourable to the meme-er. Ditto a lot of commercially useful skills are spread because it is in everyone's interests that businessmen are competent. Messages of peace, kindness and (ironically) war get a lot of play because they are all helpful in various ways if other people know about them. Reading up on the jhanas they are clearly a very real, very distinct thing. But they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner and it is practically impossible to verify if someone has actually experienced them. So they drop out of the conversation pretty quickly unless they are attached to something else (this is a large part of the genius of Buddhism and other religions, attaching good ideas to social rites).
- dnissley 2y ago
  > they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner Most of the people I know who've gotten into jhana really do talk a big game about how it's affected their behavior in the world in ways that obviously benefit others. Being more compassionate, kind, patient, accepting, forgiving, etc. Personally I don't think I've gotten to jhana, but if nothing else the traits I've cultivated through meditation have allowed me to feel more grateful and loving towards those around me, and that's of simple obvious value to them (as well as me). If jhana means doing that even more reliably, then again I'd call that obviously of value to others and the world at large.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    Possibly it is a good time to reflect on the following puzzler: There are people you know who have achieved a jhana but don't talk about it. What are they saying?
    - dnissley 2y ago
      Is the implication that those who aren't talking about it are a set of people for whom experiencing jhana was net neutral/negative for the people around them?
swayvil 2y ago
Jhanas are distinctive states reached when you do concentration meditation deeply. Like, when you go this deep you'll see this weird thing. And when you get this deep you see this other weird thing, and so on. I've gotten to the third or thereabouts. But that was when I was really into concentration meditation. (And believe you me, there is real magic there). These days I do the other thing (vipassana. Dry. That is to say, without concentration meditation prep).
- saulpw 2y ago
  Why dry? Doesn't the jhana lube make it smoother?
  - swayvil 2y ago
    Ya, but I don't like concentration meditation.
throwawy101110 2y ago
"Prior to attempting the jhanas, I’d guess that I had maybe 30 hours of lifetime meditation experience, scattered over a decade or more: in other words, not much. But with just over 20 hours of practice, I progressed through all nine jhanic states." Okay, after that passage I stopped reading, as the author clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. The truth is, people devote their entirely lives living as monastics and still not reach Jhanas (although there are many other benefits, and the life of a monk/nun does take you closer to getting there). In fact, many respectable monks teach that Jhanas are pretty much the end of the Path. From there it is just a small step left to final Liberation. Yes, I am aware of "Jhana lite", as taught by some lay teachers. But those are certainly not the real thing. Real Jhanas are incredibly profound and powerful states that are worth exploring and understanding, devoting a life to, even. But please get your information from a reputable sources (eg. Ajahn Brahm certainly knows what he's talking about). Not a random person on the internet with "just over 20 hours of practice".
stoniejohnson 2y ago
On one hand, my brain kinda shuts off when people start applying structure to spirituality. On the other hand, doing an extensive search amongst possible head spaces you can occupy is a no-brainer for a consciousness implemented on a primate.
- swayvil 2y ago
  We have a method. You do the thing, you see the stuff. The rest is commentary.
- adolph 2y ago
  Is consciousness defined well enough to be implemented?
- jackdawipper 2y ago
  yea, intellectualised spiritualism is just intellectual meanderings
wayoverthecloud 2y ago
Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it. I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-language speaking country, I can read Pali and Sanskrit texts without translation.(Being from a SA country doesn't mean anyone can do that obviously. My family was more religious than others I guess). I am not beating my own drums but I have to put in some credibility to be taken seriously on the Internet. I really have no other credibility to put forward than this so please take my advice with a grain of salt because I am not an enlightened man like the religious scripts depict. If you are a beginner, forget Jhanas and these tricks. They are just there to confuse you more. The wanting of stages of Jhanas are actually a hindrance. Buddha has warned about it. But his warning has been treated like a footnote. But in modern context, the warning should be the introduction. Because people can rarely deal with any discomfort these days. They've read the Jhanas, they want it now. I am almost 45% sure we will see a AI for Jhanas in the next 50 years. Anyways, here's my advice for beginners: When you start meditation, sooner or later, maybe even after a day or two, you'll eventually feel a state of peace. It is bound to happen, you will just have to take words of countless meditation literature and gurus and see for yourself. And the peace will be short-lived. Then, you will want to extend this peace. You've read about the Jhanas, the bliss, the peace, the oneness, and all. But it's not working for you right? Because you have been fooled again. Previously, you were chasing for drugs/media/TikTok/girls/whatever or some other forms of pleasure/happiness and now you are chasing for the bliss, the peace, whatever the texts say or you've been told. It's the same thing. You are still chasing, you are still desiring. The object of desire is "Jhanas" now but it's still a desire and in desiring there is going to be mental conflict and hopelessness and feeling of losing because obviously you desire only the things you don't have. The best advice I would give to a beginner meditator, is to be interested. Become interested in the process of meditation, forget the happiness, the results. Oh spoiler alert, you will actually feel like you are being more sadder after you started meditating. You will feel like you are noticing more problems, more issues with the society/beings etc. You aren't becoming sadder or the world is not sadder, you are noticing the sadness that was always there. Let it ride, enjoy the process. Don't treat meditation like a chore like I did. Be really interested. You have to be interested because it's a lifetime work. Your brain is neuroplastic so it's been addicted to patterns and habits from your birth to now. Don't expect to change them in a single meditation session. It's okay to meditate for 5 minutes a day and 2 hours the next day or miss it for weeks. Do it when you feel like it and when you are genuinely interested and curious, you'll just come back to it more and more without needing to force yourself to discipline and hate the word "meditation" in the process. Unless you are genuinely interested you will never surrender to meditation and unless you let go, you will never allow "Jhanas" to appear, because remember everything appears in emptiness.
ergonaught 2y ago
> But with just over 20 hours of practice, I progressed through all nine jhanic states. This is simply not true. It would be silly to deny that the author had some particular experience(s), but author absolutely did not have the described (quoted) experience. This "words have whatever meaning I decide they have" world goes absolutely nowhere productive or useful. I'd love it if you all would stop doing it.
- alecst 2y ago
  I dunno. I heard a story about Ayya Khema that she basically just stayed up all night for a while just committed to learning the jhanas. One of the problems with all the stuff is that it's very hard for us to know what other people have experienced. So who knows. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Let's not be so closed-minded about it. People are different.
  - __rito__ 2y ago
    I have never come across a Buddhist source saying that some people are inherently more advantaged than others. But I did come across some interviews of great Tantric gurus, and they all say that some people are more in inherent advantage over others in terms of spiritual progress.
    - lewispollard 2y ago
      > I have never come across a Buddhist source saying that some people are inherently more advantaged than others. That's essentially the entirety of the Buddha's teachings on karma. I haven't the time to look for sources right now, but I'm pretty sure the close disciples of the Buddha - who all had distinct and extraordinary abilities, either feats of memory or meditation - were explained to have those abilities due to intense work in past lives. Indeed, the Buddha himself didn't chance upon his enlightenment - he made a vow to do it thousands or millions of lifetimes prior, and worked towards it life by life until he was able to achieve it.
    - axkdev 2y ago
      >Then, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, the Buddha Vipassī surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, out of his compassion for sentient beings. And he saw sentient beings with little dust in their eyes, and some with much dust in their eyes; with keen faculties and with weak faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach. And some of them lived seeing the danger in the fault to do with the next world, while others did not. It’s like a pool with blue water lilies, or pink or white lotuses. Some of them sprout and grow in the water without rising above it, thriving underwater. Some of them sprout and grow in the water reaching the water’s surface. And some of them sprout and grow in the water but rise up above the water and stand with no water clinging to them. This is from Digha Nikaya 14. There is another one, but I don't remember which sutta, where Buddha says that for some people the path is long and hard, while for others it's short and quick.
0x1ceb00da 2y ago
A question for those familiar with jhanas. How would physical discomfort affect your ability to meditate? What if you had a headache? What if you had brainfog because of lack of sleep?
- Tao3300 2y ago
  > How would physical discomfort affect your ability to meditate It doesn't really. Unless you're in total agony, it's just another thing in the stew. Jon-Kabat Zinn might be of some interest. IIRC, much of the work he was doing around Full Catastrophe Living had to do with pain management. > What if you had brainfog because of lack of sleep? You'll probably fall asleep. Which is okay because you needed it.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
I first heard about these from Slate Star Codex and I wonder if anyone else here did. I can't remember exactly which post
- dnissley 2y ago
  This one: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nick-cammarata-on-jhana https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nick-cammarata-on-jhana
getpost 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
_nalply 2y ago
Please take care. There's the "dark night of the soul". Everybody is different. I and my wife experienced something similar to this phenomenon but my wife decades (!) earlier than me and she was completely alone. She had meditation therapy because of her cerebral palsy and when she fell into the night dark nobody understood her. I learnt a lot from her experience. Today I explain it like this: If you realize that everything is empty you lose ground. I and my wife are not experienced meditators and both stumbled upon it by accident separately and not at the same time. What hit both of us hard is: if even being good and doing good things is empty then what's the point? Your dark night of the soul is probably different, so it does not make sense to tell too much about our experience. The only thing I want to tell you: If you are going to meditate, you'll probably need help at some time. If someone supports, understands and loves you, this could be perhaps enough. If you see someone meditating needing help, try to help. This said, it is better if you have an experienced person helping you, but if not, a good, understanding friend is better than nobody. Don't be afraid and start meditating anyway. Just keep in mind that not many people talk about the dark night of the soul and so most meditators in the West are completely blindsided. If this happens to you, take rest and look for an helpful friend. EDIT: added the last sentence.
- fredrikholm 2y ago
  To add to this, you're more likely to find someone who experientially understands what you're going through (and how to deal with it) in Buddhist circles, esp. those lineages who primarily focus on meditation (Zen, Chan). Even if you don't necessarily prescribe to a Buddhist world view, being able to talk to someone who not only understands what you're talking about but has also gone through it and knows precisely how to get through it, helps immensely. OP, I hope that you and your partner landed and got some intuition about the answer to your question(s). If you want someone (meditator) to talk to, my email is in my bio.
- lewispollard 2y ago
  There is usually a marked difference between "insight" practice (that give realisation about the fundamental nature of experiences) and "concentration" practice (i.e. jhanas). Just practicing jhanas is not all that conducive to mental upset - you purify your behaviour, focus the mind, suppress the hindrances, and experience intense states of wholesome qualities that take over your consciousness for a while. There's nothing negative or dark about that. But Buddhist practice goes beyond jhana practice by using the power of that focused mind and suppressed hindrances to analyse experience through the lens of the Buddhist teachings i.e. right view. The issue comes about if the analysis comes from an incomplete or wrong view, leading to nihilism. It's best to stick to "pure" jhana practice and not meddle with insight practice if possible, if one doesn't have access to reliable teacher than can correct misconceptions in view that lead to negative outcomes. The other thing is that "pure" jhana practice, when done correctly, kind of sets up the mind with a kind of wholesome "blank slate" from which to do the analysis that leads to insight. Some traditions, especially those that have been imported as "secular mindfulness" to the west, tend to emphasise just doing that analysis of experience without too much jhana practice involved. If you don't already have a very wholesome mental state (i.e. the kind of mental state that comes about from living in a monastery and limiting the actions and speech being undertaken) then there can be a whole lot of mess to sort through and opportunities for unwholesome states of mind to latch on and become the basis for your worldview. It's not a coincidence that a lot of the narrative and commentary about mindfulness and the "dark night of the soul" (i.e. dukkha nanas) comes from those traditions, but isn't mentioned in other traditions that emphasise practice differently.
albert_e 2y ago
Is "jhana" a separate word or just a alternate spelling (if I may, an incorrect one) for "dhyana" which means mental focus / meditation? (I am referring to the Sanskrit word which is also the root for many indian language words that mean the same -- dhyaan in Hindi, or dhyaanam in Telugu)
- aftoprokrustes 2y ago
  They are the same, but in a different language. Jhana is Pāli, Dhyana is Sanskrit. Pāli ist the language of the oldest collection of discourses of the Buddha, on which Theravada buddhism is based. Sanskrit appeared later and is often used in Mahayana traditions. As far as I know both Pāli and Sanskrit are artificially created languages, by merging various Indian dialects of the time, for the purpose of communicating spiritual/religious teachings across ethnic boundaries.
  - lewispollard 2y ago
    > Sanskrit appeared later and is often used in Mahayana traditions. While Sanskrit was used in later Buddhist traditions, the term "dhyana" in Sanskrit predates the Buddha, as it was used in the Vedas, and a lot of Pali does seem to derive from Sanskrit (or at least, other local languages that were influenced by Sanskrit). Now, "modern" Sanskrit and "vedic" Sanskrit can be considered two things (like English and Old English), but many of the terms used are the same, hence its influence on Pali that compare to modern Sanskrit terms.
- lewispollard 2y ago
  As mentioned, they're the same. Although "dhyana" can be translated as "meditation", it should be pointed out that at least in the yoga tradition, it refers to a specific, deeply focused state of one pointedness, like jhana, rather than being the act of performing a meditation technique itself - which is referred to as "dharana", I believe. So practicing "dharana" leads to "dhyana", in much the same way as particular techniques of concentration lead to "jhana".
nprateem 2y ago
$1000+ for an online meditation retreat from a few guys with only a few years experience. Everything I hate about capitalism. How to take something beautiful and turn it into a cash cow :(
- anon1094 2y ago
  I got skeptical when I saw that. These practices are supposed to, from my current understanding, help you see reality clearly by making you more aware of impermanence, dhukka, and not-self. I don't mind participating or even paying for a retreat, but it seems like they're trying to sell the positive aspects of it too much like it's some spiritual drug. There are quotes on there making comparisons to doing these "jhanna" practices instead of eating another slice of cake?
jackdawipper 2y ago
I was ten years into Vipassana before trying the Jhanas and found them challenging. two years practising, I eventually got them. I found leigh brasingtons stuff very useful on it, though I think he was born with the "concentration" ability somewhat, while others like me have to struggle harder to get there. https://www.leighb.com/sitemap.htm https://www.leighb.com/sitemap.htm he also had a clinical study done while he went into the jhana states that is worth a look. that can be found here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659471/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659471/
krackers 2y ago
https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28 https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-in... is another good discussion I've found describing the experiences of the jhanas

78 points by mandliya 2y ago

I've been meditating pretty consistently for the last year 20 min meditations or more every day and though I've put way more than the time the OP put in trying to achieve jhanas I couldn't even reach the first one. I wonder what I'm missing!

dnissley 2y ago
I went on a Jhourney retreat with about a year of daily practice under my belt. I didn't reach jhana, and was a bit discouraged after finding out that almost everyone else around me had! I think around 75% of those who attended based on my calculations. Including those with almost no background in meditation at all. But also some people who came to the retreat had already had access to these states. I do credit the retreat for reinvigorating my practice though, and reinforcing that jhana or no you should be aiming to be relaxed and joyful after most meditation sessions or you're probably doing it wrong.
3l3ktr4 2y ago
I think this startup-y way of tapping into meditation i pretty silly but also, idk maybe it's the way for us nerds to achieve these things?
- pas 2y ago
  there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. circumstances of course matter, but instruction, especially the interactivity is decisive. yes, there's a practice element, to do the dissociative steps well, to get the right body sensations amplified with the right mental ones, etc. the start-up-y way is not better or worse for you if it works. the traditional way(s) work vy constraining as much of the circumstances as possible, so the originating mind state is "exactly" as the one the instructor had.
  - kranner 2y ago
    I think the startuppy way might be a little worse, in terms of how it can set up more craving and comparison with others, particularly if you're convinced you need to experience the full Visuddhimagga jhanas to get the really real insight practice going, and others are ahead of you somehow. I've experienced both the Sutta jhanas (in a TWIM retreat) and the VM jhanas (spontaneously after a lot of practice). They're wonderful and the VM jhanas in particular really boost sensory clarity and concentration which is certainly helpful for insight practice, but a sustained practice or rather, sustained intention to practice well have been more helpful to me over the years.
  - 0x1ceb00da 2y ago
    > there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. This is just not true. There are athletes with sub 100ms reaction time. The average person is over twice of that. It only makes sense that there are meditative athletes whose abilities surpass those of the average guy.
    - saulpw 2y ago
      In your analogy, we are all capable of running (probably), even if some of us are better at it.
    - swayvil 2y ago
      The ancient meditation wizards of yore preferred to recruit those with "habitual one-pointed attention" (these days we call them aspergers etc). Because they are uncommonly good at concentration.
      - jackdawipper 2y ago
        lol, aspergers et al, are the opposite to good at concentrating.
        swayvil 2y ago
        That is incorrect.
sincerely 2y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I wish it were possible to externally verify in some way. I'm a bit skeptical of how easily a lot of newcomers to meditation claim to have reached them.
- lewispollard 2y ago
  Although I agree that a lot of people may be overblowing their experience, either by mistake, through ignorance, or else for clout/internet points, think about it this way: when the Buddha was alive, the jhanas were standard practice, and had been for as long as yogis could remember. The Buddhist teaching almost assumes a familiarity with the jhanas and doesn't really explicitly teach how to access them. The entire teaching is based on the Buddha learning the jhanas from various teachers of the time, mastering them, and eventually finding them unsatisfactory. Yogis who came to the Buddha seemed to already have an understanding and background with jhanas, which the Buddha then taught them to use to realise what he himself had realised. What this tells us is that jhanas aren't some kind of lofty, difficult to achieve thing that only a select few ever achieve; instead, it seems to suggest that it's something that's available to anyone with enough dedication and is something that transcends traditions or religions, and has been known about for millenia.
zeroxfe 2y ago
If you're a beginner, you'll need to work your way up to at least 45-minute sessions. You're not going to be able to enter jhanas in 20 minutes unless you're very experienced and entered them consistently for a long time. For me, it was when I got to 1 hour sessions when I started to experience the deep absorption for jhanas.
- swayvil 2y ago
  I find that multiple sessions is the way to go. not necessarily longer. Like, dedicate 3 days to chill stuff (walking, cleaning...) and meditation. Meditate, say, 6 times a day for 20-30 minutes. That'll do it. Fasting helps too.
deleted 2y ago
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__rito__ 2y ago
It took me much more time (~3 years) than the author here. I meditated following a book. And the what is described here as J7/J8 happened while meditating. But, J9 happened where I didn't expect it. My dad learned yoga from a guru, and he taught me some Pranayama to ease my breathing, as I have chronic cold often. That works, but I experienced J9 (here) while doing those Pranayama rather than Sati meditation. I didn't expect it or was "trying" anything, but it happened there. The author sheds no light in their state of learning or lifestyle. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that they play significant role.. Following Buddhist eight fold path as much as you can, serving the needy, leading a mindful life, and knowing the basics of mythology, philosophy, etc. probably will help.
- lewispollard 2y ago
  > The author sheds no light in their state of learning or lifestyle. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that they play significant role.. I think that's an excellent point, though the author sets up the article in a scientific way, describing the practice as mechanical - a lot of the ability to access these states comes from coming into it with a wholesome and cleaned up mind, which comes about through doing wholesome actions, saying wholesome things (and not lying), and generally the practice of "sense restraint" - not allowing unwholesome influences into your life. Otherwise, you sit down and your mind is a well of negative thoughts and feelings that completely cloud your ability to access jhana. Of course, if you're the sort of person that behaves, speaks and thinks that way in general, you may not realise that that's one of the main things that allow you to access the jhanas.
cut3 2y ago
Do it longer. 20 minutes is just a settling in period. The more you do it the better you get. Physical exercise first can help one mentally calm down quicker. Finally, studying others methods is helpful. The book "the six dharma gates to the sublime" was helpful for me personally for jhana practices, and there are lots of other great resources and teachers available if you look.
jackdawipper 2y ago
I spent two decades following this approach. I didnt know that I didnt know what meditating was until I did a 10 day silent Vipassana retreat. But even a decade into learning Vipassana I couldnt get the jhanas and took me two years pretty heavy practise for it to click. some of us just take a lot of work to get there. monkey brains maybe.
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
For me a game changer was reading: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/ I moved from Transcendental Meditation (which I had learned previously) which doesn't quite get you into these states to concentration and insight according to this book and it got me there.

derrida 2y ago

It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase and cultivate wholesome states that are outside the sensory world. But the sort of description of so called "jhana" in the article misses it - it points to the feelings generated in the body. They are rather like a boat and its wake... the wake is the feelings but the boat is something else - they are the wholesome states. We don't focus on the feelings, rather keep driving the boat (focusing on our meditation object). Then ... boom... we suddenly hit a river bank and have no idea what happened. It's unmistakable. For instance with metta the boat would be the intention "may I be happy" the feelings are the by-product or wake. Jhana is proper like a boat that suddenly unexpectedly hits the shore... It rocks and blows the mind (and as the mind contains model of the world - it feels like the world shook a bit then froze). A good "geeks guide" is "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" written by someone who finished a physics degree at cambridge and spent 9 years with Ajahn Chah. If we instead mistake something else for "jhana" like some positive feels, we're going to be stuck cultivating a local maxima. It's not to say the practice is wrong, it's actually quite good. It's just not jhana. We should listen to the professional community just like we listen to the professionals of physics in academia, instead of some posts from people on the internet that have done a few 30 day retreats. But please do not call it jhana and have some humility ... these terms are central to some of the okdest institutions in the world and theres a professional community in the dharmic traditions who literally do this full time all over asia. If someone wants to hear a competent speaker who has done the necessary time and training at those institutions and is also trained in the conventional university system, someone like Ajahn Brahm (Theoretical Physics Cambridge) Beth Upton (Economics Cambridge) or Shalia Catherine or Sayadaw U Jagara

dnissley 2y ago
What do you think about twim jhanas, which are similarly "light"?
- 2y ago

roenxi 2y ago

One of the interesting insights into society at large is that one of the big divisions of knowledge is into the pots of "benefits others that you know this" and "other". There is a lot of social effort put into spreading political memes (as the easiest example) because that will influence society in a way that is favourable to the meme-er. Ditto a lot of commercially useful skills are spread because it is in everyone's interests that businessmen are competent. Messages of peace, kindness and (ironically) war get a lot of play because they are all helpful in various ways if other people know about them. Reading up on the jhanas they are clearly a very real, very distinct thing. But they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner and it is practically impossible to verify if someone has actually experienced them. So they drop out of the conversation pretty quickly unless they are attached to something else (this is a large part of the genius of Buddhism and other religions, attaching good ideas to social rites).

dnissley 2y ago
> they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner Most of the people I know who've gotten into jhana really do talk a big game about how it's affected their behavior in the world in ways that obviously benefit others. Being more compassionate, kind, patient, accepting, forgiving, etc. Personally I don't think I've gotten to jhana, but if nothing else the traits I've cultivated through meditation have allowed me to feel more grateful and loving towards those around me, and that's of simple obvious value to them (as well as me). If jhana means doing that even more reliably, then again I'd call that obviously of value to others and the world at large.
- roenxi 2y ago
  Possibly it is a good time to reflect on the following puzzler: There are people you know who have achieved a jhana but don't talk about it. What are they saying?
  - dnissley 2y ago
    Is the implication that those who aren't talking about it are a set of people for whom experiencing jhana was net neutral/negative for the people around them?

swayvil 2y ago

Jhanas are distinctive states reached when you do concentration meditation deeply. Like, when you go this deep you'll see this weird thing. And when you get this deep you see this other weird thing, and so on. I've gotten to the third or thereabouts. But that was when I was really into concentration meditation. (And believe you me, there is real magic there). These days I do the other thing (vipassana. Dry. That is to say, without concentration meditation prep).

saulpw 2y ago
Why dry? Doesn't the jhana lube make it smoother?
- swayvil 2y ago
  Ya, but I don't like concentration meditation.

throwawy101110 2y ago

"Prior to attempting the jhanas, I’d guess that I had maybe 30 hours of lifetime meditation experience, scattered over a decade or more: in other words, not much. But with just over 20 hours of practice, I progressed through all nine jhanic states." Okay, after that passage I stopped reading, as the author clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. The truth is, people devote their entirely lives living as monastics and still not reach Jhanas (although there are many other benefits, and the life of a monk/nun does take you closer to getting there). In fact, many respectable monks teach that Jhanas are pretty much the end of the Path. From there it is just a small step left to final Liberation. Yes, I am aware of "Jhana lite", as taught by some lay teachers. But those are certainly not the real thing. Real Jhanas are incredibly profound and powerful states that are worth exploring and understanding, devoting a life to, even. But please get your information from a reputable sources (eg. Ajahn Brahm certainly knows what he's talking about). Not a random person on the internet with "just over 20 hours of practice".

stoniejohnson 2y ago

On one hand, my brain kinda shuts off when people start applying structure to spirituality. On the other hand, doing an extensive search amongst possible head spaces you can occupy is a no-brainer for a consciousness implemented on a primate.

swayvil 2y ago
We have a method. You do the thing, you see the stuff. The rest is commentary.
adolph 2y ago
Is consciousness defined well enough to be implemented?
jackdawipper 2y ago
yea, intellectualised spiritualism is just intellectual meanderings

wayoverthecloud 2y ago

Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it. I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-language speaking country, I can read Pali and Sanskrit texts without translation.(Being from a SA country doesn't mean anyone can do that obviously. My family was more religious than others I guess). I am not beating my own drums but I have to put in some credibility to be taken seriously on the Internet. I really have no other credibility to put forward than this so please take my advice with a grain of salt because I am not an enlightened man like the religious scripts depict. If you are a beginner, forget Jhanas and these tricks. They are just there to confuse you more. The wanting of stages of Jhanas are actually a hindrance. Buddha has warned about it. But his warning has been treated like a footnote. But in modern context, the warning should be the introduction. Because people can rarely deal with any discomfort these days. They've read the Jhanas, they want it now. I am almost 45% sure we will see a AI for Jhanas in the next 50 years. Anyways, here's my advice for beginners: When you start meditation, sooner or later, maybe even after a day or two, you'll eventually feel a state of peace. It is bound to happen, you will just have to take words of countless meditation literature and gurus and see for yourself. And the peace will be short-lived. Then, you will want to extend this peace. You've read about the Jhanas, the bliss, the peace, the oneness, and all. But it's not working for you right? Because you have been fooled again. Previously, you were chasing for drugs/media/TikTok/girls/whatever or some other forms of pleasure/happiness and now you are chasing for the bliss, the peace, whatever the texts say or you've been told. It's the same thing. You are still chasing, you are still desiring. The object of desire is "Jhanas" now but it's still a desire and in desiring there is going to be mental conflict and hopelessness and feeling of losing because obviously you desire only the things you don't have. The best advice I would give to a beginner meditator, is to be interested. Become interested in the process of meditation, forget the happiness, the results. Oh spoiler alert, you will actually feel like you are being more sadder after you started meditating. You will feel like you are noticing more problems, more issues with the society/beings etc. You aren't becoming sadder or the world is not sadder, you are noticing the sadness that was always there. Let it ride, enjoy the process. Don't treat meditation like a chore like I did. Be really interested. You have to be interested because it's a lifetime work. Your brain is neuroplastic so it's been addicted to patterns and habits from your birth to now. Don't expect to change them in a single meditation session. It's okay to meditate for 5 minutes a day and 2 hours the next day or miss it for weeks. Do it when you feel like it and when you are genuinely interested and curious, you'll just come back to it more and more without needing to force yourself to discipline and hate the word "meditation" in the process. Unless you are genuinely interested you will never surrender to meditation and unless you let go, you will never allow "Jhanas" to appear, because remember everything appears in emptiness.

ergonaught 2y ago

> But with just over 20 hours of practice, I progressed through all nine jhanic states. This is simply not true. It would be silly to deny that the author had some particular experience(s), but author absolutely did not have the described (quoted) experience. This "words have whatever meaning I decide they have" world goes absolutely nowhere productive or useful. I'd love it if you all would stop doing it.

alecst 2y ago
I dunno. I heard a story about Ayya Khema that she basically just stayed up all night for a while just committed to learning the jhanas. One of the problems with all the stuff is that it's very hard for us to know what other people have experienced. So who knows. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Let's not be so closed-minded about it. People are different.
- __rito__ 2y ago
  I have never come across a Buddhist source saying that some people are inherently more advantaged than others. But I did come across some interviews of great Tantric gurus, and they all say that some people are more in inherent advantage over others in terms of spiritual progress.
  - lewispollard 2y ago
    > I have never come across a Buddhist source saying that some people are inherently more advantaged than others. That's essentially the entirety of the Buddha's teachings on karma. I haven't the time to look for sources right now, but I'm pretty sure the close disciples of the Buddha - who all had distinct and extraordinary abilities, either feats of memory or meditation - were explained to have those abilities due to intense work in past lives. Indeed, the Buddha himself didn't chance upon his enlightenment - he made a vow to do it thousands or millions of lifetimes prior, and worked towards it life by life until he was able to achieve it.
  - axkdev 2y ago
    >Then, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, the Buddha Vipassī surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, out of his compassion for sentient beings. And he saw sentient beings with little dust in their eyes, and some with much dust in their eyes; with keen faculties and with weak faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach. And some of them lived seeing the danger in the fault to do with the next world, while others did not. It’s like a pool with blue water lilies, or pink or white lotuses. Some of them sprout and grow in the water without rising above it, thriving underwater. Some of them sprout and grow in the water reaching the water’s surface. And some of them sprout and grow in the water but rise up above the water and stand with no water clinging to them. This is from Digha Nikaya 14. There is another one, but I don't remember which sutta, where Buddha says that for some people the path is long and hard, while for others it's short and quick.

0x1ceb00da 2y ago

A question for those familiar with jhanas. How would physical discomfort affect your ability to meditate? What if you had a headache? What if you had brainfog because of lack of sleep?

Tao3300 2y ago
> How would physical discomfort affect your ability to meditate It doesn't really. Unless you're in total agony, it's just another thing in the stew. Jon-Kabat Zinn might be of some interest. IIRC, much of the work he was doing around Full Catastrophe Living had to do with pain management. > What if you had brainfog because of lack of sleep? You'll probably fall asleep. Which is okay because you needed it.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

I first heard about these from Slate Star Codex and I wonder if anyone else here did. I can't remember exactly which post

dnissley 2y ago
This one: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nick-cammarata-on-jhana https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nick-cammarata-on-jhana

getpost 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago
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_nalply 2y ago

Please take care. There's the "dark night of the soul". Everybody is different. I and my wife experienced something similar to this phenomenon but my wife decades (!) earlier than me and she was completely alone. She had meditation therapy because of her cerebral palsy and when she fell into the night dark nobody understood her. I learnt a lot from her experience. Today I explain it like this: If you realize that everything is empty you lose ground. I and my wife are not experienced meditators and both stumbled upon it by accident separately and not at the same time. What hit both of us hard is: if even being good and doing good things is empty then what's the point? Your dark night of the soul is probably different, so it does not make sense to tell too much about our experience. The only thing I want to tell you: If you are going to meditate, you'll probably need help at some time. If someone supports, understands and loves you, this could be perhaps enough. If you see someone meditating needing help, try to help. This said, it is better if you have an experienced person helping you, but if not, a good, understanding friend is better than nobody. Don't be afraid and start meditating anyway. Just keep in mind that not many people talk about the dark night of the soul and so most meditators in the West are completely blindsided. If this happens to you, take rest and look for an helpful friend. EDIT: added the last sentence.

fredrikholm 2y ago
To add to this, you're more likely to find someone who experientially understands what you're going through (and how to deal with it) in Buddhist circles, esp. those lineages who primarily focus on meditation (Zen, Chan). Even if you don't necessarily prescribe to a Buddhist world view, being able to talk to someone who not only understands what you're talking about but has also gone through it and knows precisely how to get through it, helps immensely. OP, I hope that you and your partner landed and got some intuition about the answer to your question(s). If you want someone (meditator) to talk to, my email is in my bio.
lewispollard 2y ago
There is usually a marked difference between "insight" practice (that give realisation about the fundamental nature of experiences) and "concentration" practice (i.e. jhanas). Just practicing jhanas is not all that conducive to mental upset - you purify your behaviour, focus the mind, suppress the hindrances, and experience intense states of wholesome qualities that take over your consciousness for a while. There's nothing negative or dark about that. But Buddhist practice goes beyond jhana practice by using the power of that focused mind and suppressed hindrances to analyse experience through the lens of the Buddhist teachings i.e. right view. The issue comes about if the analysis comes from an incomplete or wrong view, leading to nihilism. It's best to stick to "pure" jhana practice and not meddle with insight practice if possible, if one doesn't have access to reliable teacher than can correct misconceptions in view that lead to negative outcomes. The other thing is that "pure" jhana practice, when done correctly, kind of sets up the mind with a kind of wholesome "blank slate" from which to do the analysis that leads to insight. Some traditions, especially those that have been imported as "secular mindfulness" to the west, tend to emphasise just doing that analysis of experience without too much jhana practice involved. If you don't already have a very wholesome mental state (i.e. the kind of mental state that comes about from living in a monastery and limiting the actions and speech being undertaken) then there can be a whole lot of mess to sort through and opportunities for unwholesome states of mind to latch on and become the basis for your worldview. It's not a coincidence that a lot of the narrative and commentary about mindfulness and the "dark night of the soul" (i.e. dukkha nanas) comes from those traditions, but isn't mentioned in other traditions that emphasise practice differently.

albert_e 2y ago

Is "jhana" a separate word or just a alternate spelling (if I may, an incorrect one) for "dhyana" which means mental focus / meditation? (I am referring to the Sanskrit word which is also the root for many indian language words that mean the same -- dhyaan in Hindi, or dhyaanam in Telugu)

aftoprokrustes 2y ago
They are the same, but in a different language. Jhana is Pāli, Dhyana is Sanskrit. Pāli ist the language of the oldest collection of discourses of the Buddha, on which Theravada buddhism is based. Sanskrit appeared later and is often used in Mahayana traditions. As far as I know both Pāli and Sanskrit are artificially created languages, by merging various Indian dialects of the time, for the purpose of communicating spiritual/religious teachings across ethnic boundaries.
- lewispollard 2y ago
  > Sanskrit appeared later and is often used in Mahayana traditions. While Sanskrit was used in later Buddhist traditions, the term "dhyana" in Sanskrit predates the Buddha, as it was used in the Vedas, and a lot of Pali does seem to derive from Sanskrit (or at least, other local languages that were influenced by Sanskrit). Now, "modern" Sanskrit and "vedic" Sanskrit can be considered two things (like English and Old English), but many of the terms used are the same, hence its influence on Pali that compare to modern Sanskrit terms.
lewispollard 2y ago
As mentioned, they're the same. Although "dhyana" can be translated as "meditation", it should be pointed out that at least in the yoga tradition, it refers to a specific, deeply focused state of one pointedness, like jhana, rather than being the act of performing a meditation technique itself - which is referred to as "dharana", I believe. So practicing "dharana" leads to "dhyana", in much the same way as particular techniques of concentration lead to "jhana".

nprateem 2y ago

$1000+ for an online meditation retreat from a few guys with only a few years experience. Everything I hate about capitalism. How to take something beautiful and turn it into a cash cow :(

anon1094 2y ago
I got skeptical when I saw that. These practices are supposed to, from my current understanding, help you see reality clearly by making you more aware of impermanence, dhukka, and not-self. I don't mind participating or even paying for a retreat, but it seems like they're trying to sell the positive aspects of it too much like it's some spiritual drug. There are quotes on there making comparisons to doing these "jhanna" practices instead of eating another slice of cake?

jackdawipper 2y ago

I was ten years into Vipassana before trying the Jhanas and found them challenging. two years practising, I eventually got them. I found leigh brasingtons stuff very useful on it, though I think he was born with the "concentration" ability somewhat, while others like me have to struggle harder to get there. https://www.leighb.com/sitemap.htm https://www.leighb.com/sitemap.htm he also had a clinical study done while he went into the jhana states that is worth a look. that can be found here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659471/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659471/

krackers 2y ago

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28 https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-in... is another good discussion I've found describing the experiences of the jhanas