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> Too much knowledge of code is required to create a hand-made website. Building one shouldn't be any more difficult than making a PowerPoint [presentation] I

> Too much knowledge of code is required to create a hand-made website. Building one shouldn't be any more difficult than making a PowerPoint [presentation] I like this. I also wish designMode were more of a discoverable, easy-to-use feature in popular browsers. Hosting (and DNS etc.) are still a pain though, and usually cost money. > an abandonware WYSIWYG web editor called Hotglue > Hotglue is a fascinating open-source "anything goes, WYSIWYG" website making tool But it's open source (GPL), so anyone could revive (or un-abandon) it!

Dalewyn 2y ago
>Building one shouldn't be any more difficult than making a PowerPoint Once upon a time there was Microsoft Frontpage and Frontpage Express which brought becoming a webmaster to the masses. For all the rightful criticism they got, they were also what started me down the path of learning how websites are made.
- rchaud 2y ago
  Even in 2024, the <table> element remains an easier, HTML-native way to build multi-column layouts than flexbox or grid. Is it responsive? No. Does it work acceptably in the absence of the above? Yes!
  - lukan 2y ago
    I think that might be subjective, because you have known and used table first? I really like flexbox and find it way easier to use to get the desired layout. Or do you meany the problem are outdated browsers? Well, those browser would be so old by now, one really should not use them for anything.
    - rchaud 2y ago
      I mean that the problem with those is that they require lengthy tutorials and fairly extensive knowledge of CSS, just to get something pretty basic up and running. I've never seen an "ultimate guide to HTML tables", yet there are plenty such articles for flex and grid.
      - lukan 2y ago
        Well, you can do much more with them. But getting a basic example set up and explained is less then a few paragraphs. The long blababla articles might exist because of SEO. And back then that was not a thing, so a modern guide to html tables would be likely "ultimate" as well.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Later but also noteworthy: [Macromedia|Adobe] Dreamweaver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Dreamweaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Dreamweaver
lukan 2y ago
"But it's open source (GPL), so anyone could revive (or un-abandon) it!" Not everyone has the skill, or time and energy, to pick up a dead project. Most projects are dead, because the codebase became no more fun to work with. So it likely won't be well documented, nor clean code and original creators might be not around for questions. Really challenging start conditions, that is why most abandoned projects stay abandoned and people motivated rather start a fresh one. (no idea about the state of hotglue, but it would surprise me, if it would be different here)
- smaudet 2y ago
  > Not everyone has the skill, or time and energy, to pick up a dead project. To expound on that, usually when I encounter a "dead" project, the biggest hurdle(s) are the build assumptions that weren't addressed - large complex build systems that have many presumptions (usually dynamic run-times with macro libraries, that require specific versions of things to exist on your system, that themselves are also quite difficult to build/require specific starting conditions)... A good example, I see (quite often actually) build systems with nested build systems that are then bootstrapping other builds - quite a technical marvel but unsurprising when a tweak to the "underlying build tools" causes strange errors and requires massive build-system surgeries... The lesson? Be as verbose as possible about exactly everything you know you depend on, in as clear (human readable) format as possible, and always strive to pick the simplest build tool possible - if you are compiling a language, use that compiler, not a system that has support for systems that can compile your language. Technical "shortcuts" are the bane of longevity of a software artifact.
  - robinsonb5 2y ago
    Very much this. Please stop building Jenga towers. It's always alarming to encounter build instructions that start with "you need this specific version of this particular compiler for this particular obscure language..." Bonus points if your build process fetches modules from online endpoints that may or may not be there in five years' time. [And yes, I'm as guilty as anyone of creating over-engineered but ultimately fragile scripts to automate a build. My favourite is a bash script which parses a text file for filenames, matches against the file extension and processes them accordingly. If you edit the text file with a Windows-style editor so it acquires CR/LF line endings, the bash script can no longer parse it. Fun times.]

Dalewyn 2y ago

>Building one shouldn't be any more difficult than making a PowerPoint Once upon a time there was Microsoft Frontpage and Frontpage Express which brought becoming a webmaster to the masses. For all the rightful criticism they got, they were also what started me down the path of learning how websites are made.

rchaud 2y ago
Even in 2024, the <table> element remains an easier, HTML-native way to build multi-column layouts than flexbox or grid. Is it responsive? No. Does it work acceptably in the absence of the above? Yes!
- lukan 2y ago
  I think that might be subjective, because you have known and used table first? I really like flexbox and find it way easier to use to get the desired layout. Or do you meany the problem are outdated browsers? Well, those browser would be so old by now, one really should not use them for anything.
  - rchaud 2y ago
    I mean that the problem with those is that they require lengthy tutorials and fairly extensive knowledge of CSS, just to get something pretty basic up and running. I've never seen an "ultimate guide to HTML tables", yet there are plenty such articles for flex and grid.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Well, you can do much more with them. But getting a basic example set up and explained is less then a few paragraphs. The long blababla articles might exist because of SEO. And back then that was not a thing, so a modern guide to html tables would be likely "ultimate" as well.
Terr_ 2y ago
Later but also noteworthy: [Macromedia|Adobe] Dreamweaver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Dreamweaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Dreamweaver

lukan 2y ago

"But it's open source (GPL), so anyone could revive (or un-abandon) it!" Not everyone has the skill, or time and energy, to pick up a dead project. Most projects are dead, because the codebase became no more fun to work with. So it likely won't be well documented, nor clean code and original creators might be not around for questions. Really challenging start conditions, that is why most abandoned projects stay abandoned and people motivated rather start a fresh one. (no idea about the state of hotglue, but it would surprise me, if it would be different here)

smaudet 2y ago
> Not everyone has the skill, or time and energy, to pick up a dead project. To expound on that, usually when I encounter a "dead" project, the biggest hurdle(s) are the build assumptions that weren't addressed - large complex build systems that have many presumptions (usually dynamic run-times with macro libraries, that require specific versions of things to exist on your system, that themselves are also quite difficult to build/require specific starting conditions)... A good example, I see (quite often actually) build systems with nested build systems that are then bootstrapping other builds - quite a technical marvel but unsurprising when a tweak to the "underlying build tools" causes strange errors and requires massive build-system surgeries... The lesson? Be as verbose as possible about exactly everything you know you depend on, in as clear (human readable) format as possible, and always strive to pick the simplest build tool possible - if you are compiling a language, use that compiler, not a system that has support for systems that can compile your language. Technical "shortcuts" are the bane of longevity of a software artifact.
- robinsonb5 2y ago
  Very much this. Please stop building Jenga towers. It's always alarming to encounter build instructions that start with "you need this specific version of this particular compiler for this particular obscure language..." Bonus points if your build process fetches modules from online endpoints that may or may not be there in five years' time. [And yes, I'm as guilty as anyone of creating over-engineered but ultimately fragile scripts to automate a build. My favourite is a bash script which parses a text file for filenames, matches against the file extension and processes them accordingly. If you edit the text file with a Windows-style editor so it acquires CR/LF line endings, the bash script can no longer parse it. Fun times.]