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> - Consistently [...] clean [...] I don't expect this to hold true once Waymo become generally available, alas.

by RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 2y ago

dventimi 2y ago
I do. It'll be easier to keep the fleet on a cleaning schedule, and won't be left to the whims of individuals.
- billjings 2y ago
  I have a good friend who's a Lyft driver. According to him, all drivers are rated on cleanliness by passengers; if you're dinged for a weird smell, there are lasting financial consequences (even if it was for reasons outside of your control, e.g. using a Lyft provided rental while repairing from a traffic accident). We'll see how Waymo handles it! It will definitely be Waymo's problem to solve, though.
  - RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 2y ago
    I think the difference is that as an individual driver you have an incentive to keep your car clean, so that Lyft continues to dispatch riders to you. For Waymo the selective pressure is less direct and also spread across their entire fleet. They can accept a level of dirtiness, given some probability that the rider would reject the car x cost of rider requesting a (partial) refund x etc. etc. More cynically, there are simply too many people that won't take care of "public" property. If every 3rd rider (exaggerated for rhetorical purposes) trashes the car, it's gonna be dirty no matter what.
    - klipt 2y ago
      Assuming the cars have internal cameras they should be able to surcharge riders who trash the cars.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - KennyBlanken 2y ago
        That doesn't cover all the normal cleaning needed just from people being in the cars, on top of environmental stuff (sand, dirt, mud, leaf debris, pollen...) Like others said: the second they have run drivers out, the cars will stop getting cleaned obsessively because you won't have a choice. Same thing that happened when Lyft and Uber when they ran the taxi industry out of business. Same thing that happened when Zipcar was established. Cars went from being spotless and well maintained to damaged, dirty, and half the dash being lit up.
        dventimi 2y ago
        > you won't have a choice I will have a choice. I will choose one of the competitors. > Same thing that happened when Lyft and Uber when they ran the taxi industry out of business There's still a taxicab industry in San Francisco. It became better after competing with Lyft and Uber.
    - dventimi 2y ago
      I don't know how many people there are who won't take care of public property, but whatever it is I doubt it's 1 in 3.
  - underyx 2y ago
    Their policy from an email sent out Oct 2023: > Many of our riders choose Waymo for the clean and consistent vehicle we offer. To ensure every rider gets this experience, we’ll be applying a vehicle cleaning fee for riders who leave a mess behind in the vehicle, such as vomit, excessive trash, and smoking odors. > For those that self-report their mess during their ride (not including smoking), the fee will be $50. For issues that go unreported, we’ll charge riders $100 for the first violation and increase the fee for subsequent violations. Repeat trash and smoking related violations may also impact your account standing.
    - elefanten 2y ago
      That’s an awesome policy. Compare to car share services (in SF.. apples to apples) such as Gig Car and Getaround which allow unsupervised general access (i.e. no driver there to witness car treatment)… those are generally pigsties. Blunt ash all over the dashboard, used kleenexes in the door handles and cupholders, trash on the floor. It always blew my mind that the perpetrators weren’t fined into the dirt. Good for Waymo.
      - m_fayer 2y ago
        Considering that I’m in a social bubble of considerate people all of whom wouldn’t leave a single bottle cap in a car, this makes me despair at how people must be outside of my bubble.
        vkou 2y ago
        A very small percentage of people will trash a clean environment. A much larger percentage of people will add trash to an already trashed environment.
        Jcampuzano2 2y ago
        I'd say the vast majority of people don't litter or trash things, but the few that do ruin things for everyone. It only takes a few bad apples (on in this case trashy people) to ruin something for everyone else. Its like living with 4 roommates, but one of them leaves their shit everywhere. It could make the whole place look unkept for everyone else. And because we generally don't want to pick up after other peoples shit/mess things may be left trashy for a long time before anything gets cleaned.
  - dventimi 2y ago
    I haven't used Lyft in awhile but as an Uber rider what I can tell you is, if that company has a similar policy, it hasn't worked for me. The quality and cleanliness of the vehicle, and the quality of the driving, has been vastly inferior for me in San Francisco than Waymo has been.
    - Jcampuzano2 2y ago
      I travel a lot for work so use Lyft a lot and I can say the same. Its not every time, but maybe 1 in 10 times I'll get in a car that smells like absolute shit, smoke odor, unclean, etc. I think theres a stigma against reporting drivers so most people don't, but then that leaves the people who don't care about these policies to continue giving people bad experiences.
      - dventimi 2y ago
        I feel that. With about that same frequency, I encounter a vehicle or a driver or driving that's just dreadful. But, I don't report it or even ding the driver because I feel like that's a hard job that I don't wanna do, and I feel bad. I dunno, maybe I should.
- akira2501 2y ago
  The metric will be "cost of time spent cleaning" / "cost of sending out a dirty car." If this ratio is > 1 the "recommended cleaning schedule" will be the lowest priority item in the entire fleet.
  - alooPotato 2y ago
    The cost of cleaning goes way down when you do it in bulk at a service center rather than individual lyft/uber drivers trying to do it. A standardized car also helps.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      If you can incorporate the cost of large horizontal demand spikes into the off hours and you can find cheap enough labor to fill it, perhaps. The time spent travelling out of service, in cleaning, and back into service are all lost opportunities. Hopefully you can clean a very large number of cars in a very short period of time. The cars may be standard. The messes, obviously, will not be.
      - mgillett54 2y ago
        The cars already need to go out of services to recharge, they can just clean the cars while charging
        akira2501 2y ago
        The have multiple charging centers strategically placed throughout the city. These seem to currently only have security guards there. The logistics of having cleaning staff there and trying to match their schedule to expected charging times is probably not very difficult but also not very reliable either. The win they do have, that I did not consider is, they have cameras _in_ the car. So visible cleanliness is something they can manually check before and after the rid and schedule for service if required; however, it currently seems that this requires the vehicle to go to the larger centralized maintenance facility, which I guessing takes quit a bit more time than the auxiliary charge only lots. Not trying to be super pessimistic, but mixing distributed autonomous operations with centralized manual service, especially in an urban environment, seems fraught with novel challenges.
- Alupis 2y ago
  By this logic public transportation should be the cleanest of them all. But, it is unfortunately far from that.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > public transportation should be the cleanest of them all Privately operated public transport (e.g. jitneys and ferries) frequently are when positioned at a premium, as Waymo is.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      This is counter to my personal experiences - but I'm certain it does depend on location/region.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Public transit is actually pretty clean. The main problem is that they can't refuse to board disruptive passengers, who just trash everything around them. Waymo has cameras inside, so they can fine/ban you if you litter. The driverless cars can also, well, drive themselves to a cleaning center during the night-time when it won't affect the income generation. Another interesting possible feature is to redesign cars to be more easily cleanable. Driverless cars can dispense with the central console, steering wheel and pedals, with simple hard plastic covered in detachable covering. Even the seats can be made detachable.
    - alex_lav 2y ago
      Unsure where you’ve lived but in Philadelphia/New York/LA/SF/Seattle/Portland public transit is pretty disgusting, troublesome passengers or not.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > in Philadelphia/New York/LA/SF/Seattle/Portland public transit is pretty disgusting In New York right now. Subway stations are dinghy. But the cars themselves are fine. Hop on the Metro-North or LIRR and they're on par with European cleanliness standards. (If not behavioural.)
- skywhopper 2y ago
  Just wait until they 1) have a near monopoly and/or 2) decide it’s time to actually make a profit. Because it won’t last either way.
  - dventimi 2y ago
    That might be a long wait. There's no particular reason a monopoly need appear in this market. If it does, that will be a matter of public policy at it always is. That would be unfortunate, as it always is, but it would also be larger and different problem that goes well beyond this particular market.
primedteam 2y ago
They have some rider rules around keeping the car clean (screenshot link below). I'm not sure if they are enforced to this level but they do have at least one camera in the car (above the middle rear seat). https://i.imgur.com/vCRvWOc.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/vCRvWOc.jpeg
tanvach 2y ago
If they keep the 10% mark up over competitors maybe there is still hope.
mike_d 2y ago
Waymo has a partnership with Avis Budget Group to use their fleet cleaning and refueling facilities. I imagine if a user reports a dirty car someone can pop in on a camera, check it out, and divert the car to a depot.
mbrameld 2y ago
I suspect they visually inspect the cars after each ride and send them to the depot if there's something that needs to be cleaned up. There are several cameras inside the car giving a good view of the interior.

> - Consistently [...] clean [...] I don't expect this to hold true once Waymo become generally available, alas.

dventimi 2y ago

I do. It'll be easier to keep the fleet on a cleaning schedule, and won't be left to the whims of individuals.

billjings 2y ago
I have a good friend who's a Lyft driver. According to him, all drivers are rated on cleanliness by passengers; if you're dinged for a weird smell, there are lasting financial consequences (even if it was for reasons outside of your control, e.g. using a Lyft provided rental while repairing from a traffic accident). We'll see how Waymo handles it! It will definitely be Waymo's problem to solve, though.
- RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 2y ago
  I think the difference is that as an individual driver you have an incentive to keep your car clean, so that Lyft continues to dispatch riders to you. For Waymo the selective pressure is less direct and also spread across their entire fleet. They can accept a level of dirtiness, given some probability that the rider would reject the car x cost of rider requesting a (partial) refund x etc. etc. More cynically, there are simply too many people that won't take care of "public" property. If every 3rd rider (exaggerated for rhetorical purposes) trashes the car, it's gonna be dirty no matter what.
  - klipt 2y ago
    Assuming the cars have internal cameras they should be able to surcharge riders who trash the cars.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - KennyBlanken 2y ago
      That doesn't cover all the normal cleaning needed just from people being in the cars, on top of environmental stuff (sand, dirt, mud, leaf debris, pollen...) Like others said: the second they have run drivers out, the cars will stop getting cleaned obsessively because you won't have a choice. Same thing that happened when Lyft and Uber when they ran the taxi industry out of business. Same thing that happened when Zipcar was established. Cars went from being spotless and well maintained to damaged, dirty, and half the dash being lit up.
      - dventimi 2y ago
        > you won't have a choice I will have a choice. I will choose one of the competitors. > Same thing that happened when Lyft and Uber when they ran the taxi industry out of business There's still a taxicab industry in San Francisco. It became better after competing with Lyft and Uber.
  - dventimi 2y ago
    I don't know how many people there are who won't take care of public property, but whatever it is I doubt it's 1 in 3.
- underyx 2y ago
  Their policy from an email sent out Oct 2023: > Many of our riders choose Waymo for the clean and consistent vehicle we offer. To ensure every rider gets this experience, we’ll be applying a vehicle cleaning fee for riders who leave a mess behind in the vehicle, such as vomit, excessive trash, and smoking odors. > For those that self-report their mess during their ride (not including smoking), the fee will be $50. For issues that go unreported, we’ll charge riders $100 for the first violation and increase the fee for subsequent violations. Repeat trash and smoking related violations may also impact your account standing.
  - elefanten 2y ago
    That’s an awesome policy. Compare to car share services (in SF.. apples to apples) such as Gig Car and Getaround which allow unsupervised general access (i.e. no driver there to witness car treatment)… those are generally pigsties. Blunt ash all over the dashboard, used kleenexes in the door handles and cupholders, trash on the floor. It always blew my mind that the perpetrators weren’t fined into the dirt. Good for Waymo.
    - m_fayer 2y ago
      Considering that I’m in a social bubble of considerate people all of whom wouldn’t leave a single bottle cap in a car, this makes me despair at how people must be outside of my bubble.
      - vkou 2y ago
        A very small percentage of people will trash a clean environment. A much larger percentage of people will add trash to an already trashed environment.
      - Jcampuzano2 2y ago
        I'd say the vast majority of people don't litter or trash things, but the few that do ruin things for everyone. It only takes a few bad apples (on in this case trashy people) to ruin something for everyone else. Its like living with 4 roommates, but one of them leaves their shit everywhere. It could make the whole place look unkept for everyone else. And because we generally don't want to pick up after other peoples shit/mess things may be left trashy for a long time before anything gets cleaned.
- dventimi 2y ago
  I haven't used Lyft in awhile but as an Uber rider what I can tell you is, if that company has a similar policy, it hasn't worked for me. The quality and cleanliness of the vehicle, and the quality of the driving, has been vastly inferior for me in San Francisco than Waymo has been.
  - Jcampuzano2 2y ago
    I travel a lot for work so use Lyft a lot and I can say the same. Its not every time, but maybe 1 in 10 times I'll get in a car that smells like absolute shit, smoke odor, unclean, etc. I think theres a stigma against reporting drivers so most people don't, but then that leaves the people who don't care about these policies to continue giving people bad experiences.
    - dventimi 2y ago
      I feel that. With about that same frequency, I encounter a vehicle or a driver or driving that's just dreadful. But, I don't report it or even ding the driver because I feel like that's a hard job that I don't wanna do, and I feel bad. I dunno, maybe I should.
akira2501 2y ago
The metric will be "cost of time spent cleaning" / "cost of sending out a dirty car." If this ratio is > 1 the "recommended cleaning schedule" will be the lowest priority item in the entire fleet.
- alooPotato 2y ago
  The cost of cleaning goes way down when you do it in bulk at a service center rather than individual lyft/uber drivers trying to do it. A standardized car also helps.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    If you can incorporate the cost of large horizontal demand spikes into the off hours and you can find cheap enough labor to fill it, perhaps. The time spent travelling out of service, in cleaning, and back into service are all lost opportunities. Hopefully you can clean a very large number of cars in a very short period of time. The cars may be standard. The messes, obviously, will not be.
    - mgillett54 2y ago
      The cars already need to go out of services to recharge, they can just clean the cars while charging
      - akira2501 2y ago
        The have multiple charging centers strategically placed throughout the city. These seem to currently only have security guards there. The logistics of having cleaning staff there and trying to match their schedule to expected charging times is probably not very difficult but also not very reliable either. The win they do have, that I did not consider is, they have cameras _in_ the car. So visible cleanliness is something they can manually check before and after the rid and schedule for service if required; however, it currently seems that this requires the vehicle to go to the larger centralized maintenance facility, which I guessing takes quit a bit more time than the auxiliary charge only lots. Not trying to be super pessimistic, but mixing distributed autonomous operations with centralized manual service, especially in an urban environment, seems fraught with novel challenges.
Alupis 2y ago
By this logic public transportation should be the cleanest of them all. But, it is unfortunately far from that.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > public transportation should be the cleanest of them all Privately operated public transport (e.g. jitneys and ferries) frequently are when positioned at a premium, as Waymo is.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    This is counter to my personal experiences - but I'm certain it does depend on location/region.
- cyberax 2y ago
  Public transit is actually pretty clean. The main problem is that they can't refuse to board disruptive passengers, who just trash everything around them. Waymo has cameras inside, so they can fine/ban you if you litter. The driverless cars can also, well, drive themselves to a cleaning center during the night-time when it won't affect the income generation. Another interesting possible feature is to redesign cars to be more easily cleanable. Driverless cars can dispense with the central console, steering wheel and pedals, with simple hard plastic covered in detachable covering. Even the seats can be made detachable.
  - alex_lav 2y ago
    Unsure where you’ve lived but in Philadelphia/New York/LA/SF/Seattle/Portland public transit is pretty disgusting, troublesome passengers or not.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > in Philadelphia/New York/LA/SF/Seattle/Portland public transit is pretty disgusting In New York right now. Subway stations are dinghy. But the cars themselves are fine. Hop on the Metro-North or LIRR and they're on par with European cleanliness standards. (If not behavioural.)
skywhopper 2y ago
Just wait until they 1) have a near monopoly and/or 2) decide it’s time to actually make a profit. Because it won’t last either way.
- dventimi 2y ago
  That might be a long wait. There's no particular reason a monopoly need appear in this market. If it does, that will be a matter of public policy at it always is. That would be unfortunate, as it always is, but it would also be larger and different problem that goes well beyond this particular market.

primedteam 2y ago

They have some rider rules around keeping the car clean (screenshot link below). I'm not sure if they are enforced to this level but they do have at least one camera in the car (above the middle rear seat). https://i.imgur.com/vCRvWOc.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/vCRvWOc.jpeg

tanvach 2y ago

If they keep the 10% mark up over competitors maybe there is still hope.

mike_d 2y ago

Waymo has a partnership with Avis Budget Group to use their fleet cleaning and refueling facilities. I imagine if a user reports a dirty car someone can pop in on a camera, check it out, and divert the car to a depot.

mbrameld 2y ago

I suspect they visually inspect the cars after each ride and send them to the depot if there's something that needs to be cleaned up. There are several cameras inside the car giving a good view of the interior.