3 ms·

Heh. The spite wars continue. I’m sure this will earn you a lot of favor, Apple.

by MBCook 2y ago

laborcontract 2y ago
Their new slate of ai products will be able to have screen reading capabilities. There are legitimate concerns for user privacy here. Their agreement with OpenAI is likely very strict.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  How do people survive with Linux and Windows.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    Do you call being hacked with ransomware "surviving"? Or being part of a nefarious botnet "surviving"? Or accidentally installing keyloggers "surviving"?
    - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
      I am happy to make the decisions myself than have some random tech company decide on my behalf.
      - crazygringo 2y ago
        OK great, but getting hacked by ransomware still isn't what I'd call "surviving". It's a matter of tradeoffs. In exchange for making more security decisions for yourself, you wind up with a much higher risk of losing your data and privacy. So it's important to acknowledge what you're giving up as well. And Apple isn't exactly a "random tech company". It's currently literally the third largest company in the world [1]. That's about as opposite of being a "random" company as a company can possibly be. In contrast, it's precisely the software that people do install from seeming "random tech companies" that can conceal secret keyloggers, etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_corporations_by_market_capitalization#Trillion-dollar_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_corporations_by...
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - talldayo 2y ago
      Given that all three of those things are documented and present threats to Windows and MacOS (as well as iOS and Android), I guess so. Those users seem to "surivive" fine.
      - crazygringo 2y ago
        I've never heard of ransomware, botnets, or keyloggers on iPhones. I know less about Android, and how much it depends on whether you only install apps from within the Play store or not. But no, I wouldn't call it "surviving" if you get hit by ransomwhere and have to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars to restore your data, or lose your data.
        talldayo 2y ago
        > I've never heard of ransomware, botnets, or keyloggers on iPhones. Pegasus?
- talldayo 2y ago
  There are legitimate concerns for user privacy with any third-party integration, including OpenAI which is why Apple asks you before sending a request to ChatGPT. They solved this problem already, and I guess they want to try and hold EU users over a barrel by claiming interoperability is impossible or something. Seriously, what kind of fearmongering can Apple push that doesn't make you side-eye the OpenAI integration even more?
  - happyopossum 2y ago
    > There are legitimate concerns for user privacy with any third-party integration, including OpenAI which is why Apple asks you before sending a request to ChatGPT Right - which is why the ChatGPT integration is such a small part of the total Ai/LLM capabilities they announced, and they've loudly and publicly announced that it will support other 3rd parties in the future. Buuuuut - what happens if/when the EU decides the DMA requires Apple to open up their Private Cloud and on-device models to 3rd party replacement?
    - ongy 2y ago
      Then people gain options. Some of them might be worse for privacy, but if they offer better (or cheaper, which can be a quality) features, that's up to people. If this was "the olden days", it would be a legitimate concern. But mobile OSs have long forced Apps to request permission to use various features explicitely and fall back graciously when some aren't provided. So outside security concerns that exist either way, they really can only claim to care about misinformed users.
      - buildbot 2y ago
        It's literally a spyware API in the hands of a 3rd party - the options here for misinformed users are critically dangerous. Recall was seen as 1st party spyware, Apple has more privacy trust and their implementation is very secure. Allowing Bob's AI screen reader to access the same total file/device access is very scary.
        2y ago
- dartos 2y ago
  I don’t think they’re using openai. Didn’t they say they have models running on-device?
  - cobbal 2y ago
    They have both. In the demos they were sending select complex tasks out to chatgpt with a large UI alert confirming the data was leaving Apple's walled garden.
- jimbobthrowawy 2y ago
  They dealt with this for third-party keyboards by barring them from connecting to the internet, they could do something similar to replacement on-device models. Even if that meant the "ask chatgpt" option wouldn't be available in the EU. I think they're more motivated by trying to scaremonger about the DMA, in much the same way they and others did about GDPR.
Alupis 2y ago
> The spite wars continue There are consequences to regulations/legislation. You can't have it both ways. News at 11... The privacy concerns are real, and EU regulations have teeth. No matter how iron-clad Apple's agreement is with OpenAI, it's still a significant liability since data protection and the rest that comes with this tech is outside of Apple's control. So now EU citizens don't get to play with this new feature. It's pretty simple.
- groestl 2y ago
  > and EU regulations have teeth As someone who has been involved in this journey from the beginning, essentially starting from a point akin to "fuck the EU, they're laughably ignorable" it's really interesting to read this sentence. We can work with that.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    > essentially starting from a point akin to "fuck the EU, they're laughably ignorable" it's really interesting to read this sentence If you don't have a physical presence within the EU, you can and probably should ignore their laws/regulations. There's very little if anything they can do to you. This includes GDPR and other "viral" laws. EU citizens seem to believe their laws apply around the world - they do not. If you have a physical presence within the EU, like Apple does, then you cannot afford to be flippant with EU laws and regulations. They have real teeth, as you would expect for any country you have a physical presence in. Just as Apple cannot ignore US law since they are based here, they cannot ignore EU law since they are also based there. EU regulations have consequences - both good and bad. If Apple cannot guarantee compliance with EU regulations/laws, then they will have to remove or limit features that might get them into trouble. If EU citizens want this feature, then the regulations would need to change. It cannot be more simple than this. A lot of people enjoy eating the cake these days...
    - groestl 2y ago
      > both good and bad Not arguing against that. The first thing is to be able to steer. And then you can steer in the right direction. So I'm glad it seems we'll finally be able to steer. Now we can figure out where exactly we want to end up.
swat535 2y ago
There is nothing spiteful here, Apple's team has done an analysis and came to the conclusion that they can't reliably rollout this feature and be compliant with the EU regulations, which is the intended purpose of the regulation in the first place. I'm not being snarky but you should be celebrating this since it's working as intended. I think it's a healthy sign when big tech companies are forced to a take pause before releasing a feature to masses.

Heh. The spite wars continue. I’m sure this will earn you a lot of favor, Apple.

by MBCook 2y ago

Heh. The spite wars continue. I’m sure this will earn you a lot of favor, Apple.

Their new slate of ai products will be able to have screen reading capabilities. There are legitimate concerns for user privacy here. Their agreement with OpenAI is likely very strict.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
How do people survive with Linux and Windows.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Do you call being hacked with ransomware "surviving"? Or being part of a nefarious botnet "surviving"? Or accidentally installing keyloggers "surviving"?
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    I am happy to make the decisions myself than have some random tech company decide on my behalf.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      OK great, but getting hacked by ransomware still isn't what I'd call "surviving". It's a matter of tradeoffs. In exchange for making more security decisions for yourself, you wind up with a much higher risk of losing your data and privacy. So it's important to acknowledge what you're giving up as well. And Apple isn't exactly a "random tech company". It's currently literally the third largest company in the world [1]. That's about as opposite of being a "random" company as a company can possibly be. In contrast, it's precisely the software that people do install from seeming "random tech companies" that can conceal secret keyloggers, etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_corporations_by_market_capitalization#Trillion-dollar_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_corporations_by...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - talldayo 2y ago
    Given that all three of those things are documented and present threats to Windows and MacOS (as well as iOS and Android), I guess so. Those users seem to "surivive" fine.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      I've never heard of ransomware, botnets, or keyloggers on iPhones. I know less about Android, and how much it depends on whether you only install apps from within the Play store or not. But no, I wouldn't call it "surviving" if you get hit by ransomwhere and have to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars to restore your data, or lose your data.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        > I've never heard of ransomware, botnets, or keyloggers on iPhones. Pegasus?
talldayo 2y ago
There are legitimate concerns for user privacy with any third-party integration, including OpenAI which is why Apple asks you before sending a request to ChatGPT. They solved this problem already, and I guess they want to try and hold EU users over a barrel by claiming interoperability is impossible or something. Seriously, what kind of fearmongering can Apple push that doesn't make you side-eye the OpenAI integration even more?
- happyopossum 2y ago
  > There are legitimate concerns for user privacy with any third-party integration, including OpenAI which is why Apple asks you before sending a request to ChatGPT Right - which is why the ChatGPT integration is such a small part of the total Ai/LLM capabilities they announced, and they've loudly and publicly announced that it will support other 3rd parties in the future. Buuuuut - what happens if/when the EU decides the DMA requires Apple to open up their Private Cloud and on-device models to 3rd party replacement?
  - ongy 2y ago
    Then people gain options. Some of them might be worse for privacy, but if they offer better (or cheaper, which can be a quality) features, that's up to people. If this was "the olden days", it would be a legitimate concern. But mobile OSs have long forced Apps to request permission to use various features explicitely and fall back graciously when some aren't provided. So outside security concerns that exist either way, they really can only claim to care about misinformed users.
    - buildbot 2y ago
      It's literally a spyware API in the hands of a 3rd party - the options here for misinformed users are critically dangerous. Recall was seen as 1st party spyware, Apple has more privacy trust and their implementation is very secure. Allowing Bob's AI screen reader to access the same total file/device access is very scary.
      - 2y ago
dartos 2y ago
I don’t think they’re using openai. Didn’t they say they have models running on-device?
- cobbal 2y ago
  They have both. In the demos they were sending select complex tasks out to chatgpt with a large UI alert confirming the data was leaving Apple's walled garden.
jimbobthrowawy 2y ago
They dealt with this for third-party keyboards by barring them from connecting to the internet, they could do something similar to replacement on-device models. Even if that meant the "ask chatgpt" option wouldn't be available in the EU. I think they're more motivated by trying to scaremonger about the DMA, in much the same way they and others did about GDPR.

Alupis 2y ago

> The spite wars continue There are consequences to regulations/legislation. You can't have it both ways. News at 11... The privacy concerns are real, and EU regulations have teeth. No matter how iron-clad Apple's agreement is with OpenAI, it's still a significant liability since data protection and the rest that comes with this tech is outside of Apple's control. So now EU citizens don't get to play with this new feature. It's pretty simple.

groestl 2y ago
> and EU regulations have teeth As someone who has been involved in this journey from the beginning, essentially starting from a point akin to "fuck the EU, they're laughably ignorable" it's really interesting to read this sentence. We can work with that.
- Alupis 2y ago
  > essentially starting from a point akin to "fuck the EU, they're laughably ignorable" it's really interesting to read this sentence If you don't have a physical presence within the EU, you can and probably should ignore their laws/regulations. There's very little if anything they can do to you. This includes GDPR and other "viral" laws. EU citizens seem to believe their laws apply around the world - they do not. If you have a physical presence within the EU, like Apple does, then you cannot afford to be flippant with EU laws and regulations. They have real teeth, as you would expect for any country you have a physical presence in. Just as Apple cannot ignore US law since they are based here, they cannot ignore EU law since they are also based there. EU regulations have consequences - both good and bad. If Apple cannot guarantee compliance with EU regulations/laws, then they will have to remove or limit features that might get them into trouble. If EU citizens want this feature, then the regulations would need to change. It cannot be more simple than this. A lot of people enjoy eating the cake these days...
  - groestl 2y ago
    > both good and bad Not arguing against that. The first thing is to be able to steer. And then you can steer in the right direction. So I'm glad it seems we'll finally be able to steer. Now we can figure out where exactly we want to end up.

swat535 2y ago

There is nothing spiteful here, Apple's team has done an analysis and came to the conclusion that they can't reliably rollout this feature and be compliant with the EU regulations, which is the intended purpose of the regulation in the first place. I'm not being snarky but you should be celebrating this since it's working as intended. I think it's a healthy sign when big tech companies are forced to a take pause before releasing a feature to masses.