8 ms·

Comparing the Framework Laptop with the MacBook Air M2: A Detailed Review

47 points by lyricwai 2y ago

ericpauley 2y ago
> What I want to criticize is that Apple would rather re-add Magsafe than add another USB-C port, making one wonder if they are really clearing out old inventory. This is so minor, but clearly MagSafe isn’t about clearing out old inventory because it’s a different connector than old MagSafe.
- cortesoft 2y ago
  Also, MagSafe is way better for charging than USB-C, since you can’t damage it if the cable is pulled.
  - OJFord 2y ago
    Have you ever had that be a problem though? In my experience USB (any type) pulls out anyway. I do find MagSafe appealing, but not enough, not if it's not what everyone's using. If it were a feature of USB-C it'd be great; as a separate thing, no, I'd rather have a non-magnetic USB-C. (Haven't used the MagSafe port or cable on mine yet, and don't expect to.)
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      Pulling away has generally been fine but I've had USB C cables break due to shearing (laptop at the edge of the table and someone swings their hand while walking past). It doesn't seem break the port thankfully but I do carry a MagSafe cable with me if I remember. The nice thing is if I forget I can still just use USB C again. To be honest the most appealing thing isn't even the accident prevention, it's one of those "slight interaction improvements for something you do hundreds of times over the year" type things in that you bring the cable near and it just clips in, you pull the laptop away or push a little in any direction and it just pops out. Is it a big deal compared to tugging out for a type C cable? No. Is it nice? Yeah.
      - Lawrence001 2y ago
        [dead]
    - svieira 2y ago
      :raises-hand: Yes, I have bent the charging portion of my USB-C on a Mac before but have had zero trouble with the MagSafe versions
    - ghostpepper 2y ago
      USB-C pulls out cleanly only if you pull the cable in a direction roughly parallel to the insertion axis. MagSafe can be pulled from any direction and disconnects cleanly without damage.
    - kstenerud 2y ago
      I've ruined one laptop usb-c port and almost ruined a second from tripping over the cable or the laptop falling off a table and yanking the cord out at a bad angle. The magnetic connectors are awesome! I use them in every laptop. You can buy magnetic adapters super cheap on Amazon.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
      Yes. MagSafe should never have been removed. I can literally just ignore where the power cable is.
    - BurningFrog 2y ago
      I probably haven't, but that's far from the point for me. The big thing is I don't have to have the discipline to always be careful where the charging cable is and adjust my movements to keep it untouched. Cables are cheap. One less thing to worry about is priceless.
    - MBCook 2y ago
      MagSafe saved my butt a few times in the past. Full disclosure that was pre-USB-C. I haven’t “tested” USB-C in that way. But it’s a really great feature. And frees up a USB-C port for other use.
      - OJFord 2y ago
        I agree it's a great feature, it just doesn't trump 'universal' for me. At my desk I want one cable to plug in, and MagSafe can't be it. Travelling if I take USB-C it can charge my phone and earphones too, transfer data if I needed to even. It's just never going to be such a great feature for me to bother finding/carrying the different & extra cable, personally.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    In 20 years of having laptops, I have never ever damaged the laptop or power cable by accidentally pulling on it or tripping over it, despite pulling or tripping on it fairly frequently. For some number of years during that time when I had a Mac laptop with MagSafe, I very often accidentally knocked the power cable out, which was always super annoying. I've been using USB-C for charging on three different laptops over the past 8 years or so, and I've been perfectly happy with it. I'm sure some people have damaged laptops with non-MagSafe charging, but I've been more annoyed with MagSafe than I think it's worth.
    - ericpauley 2y ago
      Good for you. I know someone who tripped on a power cable and broke their toe, leading to years of complications. Events with odds lower than 1/20yr can still be worth considering. For what it’s worth I have never used MagSafe on my MacBook but don’t mind that it’s there.
  - jacknews 2y ago
    Do the new magsafe pins burn out after a year or two like the old ones? Or the cable insulation sloughs off? And then of course you had to buy an entire new proprietary charger from Apple, not just a 3rd party cable. Or even take the laptop to Apple to replace the laptop's magsafe connector.
    - amomchilov 2y ago
      The burning problem was a SNAFU on the first-gen “T-shaped” connectors. They redesigned gen 1 into an “L-shape”, which fixed it. The cable rubber was always remarkably shit, even with really delicate handling. Lucky now it’s a braided cable, and holding up well so far. Time will tell Lastly, they thankfully made the cable modular, with a USB connection to the brick. Sometimes I use it with a USB-C to C cable, so I can use it with my phone.
- krsdcbl 2y ago
  I'm rather reading this as a reaction to EU law making standardized usb c mandatory on phones.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    The phones never used this type of MagSafe, MagSafe only phones would still be allowed under the current mandate, and the laptops already supported USB C charging prior to the mandate.
  - Jtsummers 2y ago
    How so? MagSafe 3 was first available in 2021 (so probably developed in 2019-2020 timeframe, if not a bit earlier). The mandate didn't come out until 2022, and takes full effect this year. Besides, you can still charge the laptops with USB-C, the MagSafe option is just that, an option.
- mPReDiToR 2y ago
  Try this: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EyK6Rjh https://a.aliexpress.com/_EyK6Rjh I use them in phones, laptops, Flipper Zero, anything which takes USB C.
dheera 2y ago
I have a Framework, because I much prefer Linux, and don't want to spend more than market prices on SSD and RAM. It's the best Linux laptop I have ever owned. However, I do have to admit the Macbook just has a better build quality, and Framework could up their game here. Especially the bezel, the general "gritty" feel of the aluminum, the cheap feeling to the pluggable modules. Reflections in the screen are not mirror-like, they are wavy. The screen resolution and brightness could also be higher by a notch; it's impossible to use the Framework in sunlight but I think Macbooks are in fact barely useable in the sun.
- MostlyStable 2y ago
  Some of those could definitely be improved, but also, I do think that it is much, much easier to build a "premium" feeling product when you can seal the whole thing together and don't have to worry about repairs or upgrades. It's one reason while, why I'm personally a big fan of framework and their philosophy (my 16 just arrived the other day), I also know that they aren't for everyone. Repairable, upgradeable, modular, hardware comes with real trade-offs and not everyones value function will prefer those trade-offs.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    It’s easy to avoid seams if you don’t have them in the first place by milling a huge chunk of the laptop one out one chunk of aluminum. But that’s expensive. And I agree with you it’d likely make upgrades/repairs much harder or more expensive and may remove modularity all together.
- lousken 2y ago
  In terms of display, framework 16 can definitely hold on its own against macbook. I saw no difference in terms of brightness (only when I downloaded an app for macbook to use HDR to boost it beyond maximum), resolution was also perfectly fine and couldn't see a difference. 165Hz however feels ever so slightly more smooth. The notch on the mac looks ugly af though and was first thing i disabled and I much prefer the look of framework. What I don't like about the framework is definitely the aluminium sides that you use to position the touchpad. The tolerances are too high and it makes it look like a prototype. Honestly I would buy just a simple bottom piece with no adjustments possible, center is fine for me
renewiltord 2y ago
I actually really miss this style of blog post that was really common back in the day. Very human-like. What is the multi-touch scene like on the Framework? I used to be Ubuntu-primary and the one thing it wasn't good at was things like scrolling in 4 directions. On my Mac, I can move many web things left and right and diagonally, but on my Ubuntu laptop (likely as a constraint of the laptop I had) I could only move along the axes. On something like Excalidraw, for instance, I just move like I have my fingers on the screen. It's great on my Macbook. Is it like that on Linux? I think I might well buy one soon with this and DHH recommending. I just bought another Asus ROG Zephyrus laptop and got Ubuntu running on it. I have yet to try LLMs on the built-in 4090, but I'm excited about that. Thank you for the review!
luyu_wu 2y ago
Just a random thought, it's amazing how competitive a startup can be when compared to a company that has orders of magnitude more R&D funds! Tradtionally, I would think hardware products would have a relatively large moat!
- killingtime74 2y ago
  Well the MacBook air is the cut down budget product. The Framework can't compare to the MacBook Pro. The mini led screen, the battery life, the performance, the speakers. I wish it did because I much prefer Linux to MacOS
  - jagger27 2y ago
    Asahi has come pretty far!
    - killingtime74 2y ago
      Yep, keen to use it at some point!
  - stkdump 2y ago
    It's not like the Air is half the price of the Framework.
    - killingtime74 2y ago
      It's true but it's not like me or my company are trying to save money when buying my primary laptop
      - stkdump 2y ago
        Oh, good for you! I guess there is a sizable population even with software developers for whom money is some concern. I mean I can't be the only one...
flakiness 2y ago
The author doesn't care about either the keyboard or the display because external parts are used... Maybe a mini PC is a better option for him?
- sandyarmstrong 2y ago
  Or the battery :P
- cortesoft 2y ago
  Right? This is like doing a car review, but continually pointing out that you are just going to leave it parked in front of your house so you don’t care about how it drives.
- wrsh07 2y ago
  I think this is right, but optionality is valuable. I'm curious if a $500 mini PC plus a bottomed out mb air would suffice (maybe not! Having all your stuff on your laptop can be useful) For all that, I haven't considered a Mac mini even though I'm probably an ideal user. It doesn't help that it's on the m2 instead of m3, though. (Or m4, which is in iPads?) I probably should
  - macNchz 2y ago
    I have a high-end DIY Linux desktop and a base model M1 Air that I got for $750. I think it’s a good pairing. The laptop works well as sort of a thin client to the desktop for real work. If I didn’t have the desktop I’d definitely want more RAM, and probably a machine with a fan. Despite what many people say, I’ve had no trouble getting it to run OOM or start thermal throttling. I wanted to try a Linux laptop, but in the end I felt having a ton of battery life was ultimately my top priority when away from my desk. I don’t much care for what Apple is doing with MacOS, but their hardware really is great.
    - wrsh07 2y ago
      At Google we all had good Linux desktops at our desk and did work via ssh and I rather enjoyed it. I mostly don't even need a powerful desktop (but the cost curve is so attractive vs laptops)
simpaticoder 2y ago
My first-gen Framework 13 with Ubuntu is usable, but has major issues around power. Battery life is very poor compared to ordinary laptops (I get ~3 hours of web browsing and light coding), and compared to M-series Macbooks (which have extraordinary battery life >8 hours) it is abysmal. Suspend/resume often fails in strange ways, and occasionally even power on is problematic (e.g. battery is full but it won't turn on without being plugged into a charger). Repair-ability and running OSS software is an idealistic goal that I share, however in practical terms the need to repair a laptop is very rare. So when it breaks, I'll be well ahead of the curve; when it doesn't, which is most of the time, I'm behind the curve.
- linguae 2y ago
  I also have a Framework 13, and I agree that Apple’s ARM laptops have amazing performance per watt. The reason I have a Framework 13 instead of an ARM Mac is user-serviceability and cost savings. There is 32GB of RAM in my Framework, and at any time I could choose to upgrade to 64GB whenever necessary. However, because RAM in ARM Macs is integrated into the system and is not a separate user-replaceable component, I must purchase the maximum amount of RAM I could afford upfront, which is prohibitively expensive for me. I also do not like how storage is built-in instead of available as NVMe M.2 modules. I miss the days of my 2006 MacBook and my 2013 Mac Pro, which were both easy to upgrade. It’s this lack of upgradability in recent Macs that led me to switch to PCs despite my preference for macOS over Windows and desktop Linux. With that said, if a company offered me the choice between a PC or a Mac, I’d pick the Mac every time. It’s different when someone else is paying ;).
  - MBCook 2y ago
    I’m firmly in team Mac. And I really don’t care about upgradability that much. I’m OK with buying up front. But Apple’s BTO prices are, as everyone knows, totally insane. Combined with pathetic base amounts it really burns people. I know a lot of Mac fans who keep putting off upgrades because it costs so much to get a decent config.
    - deleted 2y ago
wpm 2y ago
Non inverted-T arrow keys make the Framework 13 a non-starter for me. I hated the full size Left/Right keys on the post Retina MacBook Pros, and Apple didn’t change it back just for me either so I don’t get why any manufacturer would try it.
- kibwen 2y ago
  The keyboard is swappable. On the storefront here I can see keyboards that do have the inverted-T: https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards
  - wpm 2y ago
    Those are all for the Framework 16. Quite a big weight (almost an entire kilo), size, and price (799 vs 1399 USD) jump to get arrow keys I can move my hand to by feel alone 100% of the time.
spaceguillotine 2y ago
why do they always choose the Air and not a laptop that also has active cooling like the Framework. I want framework to succeed because i like the idea of modularity but c'mon, go against a MacBook Pro at least.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  There's no good direct comparison that checks all the boxes of fairness while being something that makes much sense to order for the given products. If you go against a MacBook Pro to make the cooling type even then you've pretty much excluded comparing to any typical Framework build combo unless you're willing to compare to an absolutely anemic version of the Pro at a still likely higher cost. There will be some things each wins/loses on but, in the end, it doesn't make sense to get that version of the Pro anyways as the Pro really only starts to make balanced sense at the $2000 and up mark, right after where the Framework upgrades stop making sense. One comparison that would involve the Pro is "best hardware I can buy regardless of the cost" but not many people ask that question and the answer is either going to be an obvious "a high end Pro" or "Framework because I need Linux and the M3 hardware isn't the best for that".
danpalmer 2y ago
One key thing not mentioned is OS support. I own an M2 MBA for personal use, and have an M2 MBP at work, specifically because they feature macOS. I realise that is not to everyone's taste, but it is mine, it's where I'm productive, and what I enjoy using. This is a spec-point worth something to me as a result. For those who prefer Linux, that may be a spec point worth something too! I love many things about the Framework laptops, and hope Apple learns from them on those things, but ultimately I'm still on Macs because that spec point is worth so much to me.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  > One key thing not mentioned is OS support. OS support is the final section, they gave it a point for having solid Linux support.
  - ghostpepper 2y ago
    That section should be called Linux support then, because Macs clearly support macOS better than anyone else. I'd even argue that macs support macOS better than any hardware supports linux.
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      The author's commentary is definitely personal and biased towards that. That said macOS isn't necessarily the golden example of perfect hardware support by its OEM either, e.g. Linux supported hardware accelerated GIC support on Apple silicon 2 years before Apple did. macOS generally does better about it than 99% of other options do their respective hardware but I'd leave room for exception.
- chrismartin 2y ago
  The "Operating System" section of the article touches on this. Most of Framework's employees use Linux, to the extent that the CEO himself runs Windows, to shake out any glitches with Windows support. [0] It's a tiny mom & pop shop compared to Apple! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEc43CxIvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEc43CxIvY
pixelesque 2y ago
Calling the 7840U 16-core is a little disingenuous IMO: it's got 8 cores, and can do SMT...
- aurareturn 2y ago
  And it's definitely slower in most tasks than the M2.
langsoul-com 2y ago
Cannot really compare framework to air m2. Just the chip alone makes a major difference. But most importantly, being modular adds extra weight and size. So completely different leagues. Better off comparing the arm windows laptop to the air m2
- MBCook 2y ago
  You’re right they’re both aiming for a very different ideal. Mac is more towards integrated/small/light/seamless. Framework is more expandable/serviceable/upgradable/tinkerable.
mertbio 2y ago
I can’t really see the detailed part of the review. You can simply open the web page of the both products and see the things mentioned in the blog post yourself.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Doing so will get you more accurate information too as e.g. the CPU in the Framework laptop is an 8 core CPU, not a 16 core.
plussed_reader 2y ago
This reviewer seems really bitter about what Apple can manage with hardware where framework can't quite meet. The processor comparison seems woefully out of touch, among other points.
zamadatix 2y ago
I desperately wanted to get a Framework laptop but they are so oddly priced. Some of it's on stuff you can opt out of, other bits aren't. Overall it seems nice to use but so hard to justify anything but the base options. On the stuff you can opt out of: Their 2x16 GB DDR5-5600 costs nearly as much as 2x32 GB DDR5-5600. The exact same model of WD 4 TB drive costs $250 more than WD sells it for on Amazon. Based on the $1640 price it looks like the author didn't opt to order these separate despite picking the DIY option. On the stuff you can't opt out of: It's $300 price difference to go up to the 7840U. On the 16 it's another $200 to go up from the 7840HS to the 7940HS. Considering right now I can get a barebone 7940HS mini pc for $432 after instant coupon on Amazon it seems a bit steep to have the price _difference_ between the 7640U and 7940HS be $500. You can also get an external 2560x1600 120 Hz 500 nit monitor for less than the price to upgrade from the 60hz to 120hz option on the Framework. I get high base cost for a niche product but the overall spread here is just excessive when the whole point is supposed to be how much the flexibility opens things up. What good are replaceable parts if replacing them will quickly cost more than just buying a new laptop outright? The Linux support is nice but it's not like it's the only AMD or Intel laptop with Linux certified accessories out of the box around.
ggregoire 2y ago
> Operating System: [...] I already use Linux, so the Framework 13 wins. Should probably start the review with this. I'm not gonna buy a Framework 13 if I want to use macOS, and vice versa.
- MBCook 2y ago
  I didn't know the author’s opinion, and I skipped that section given I know my own preferences already. But I think it’s fine it wasn’t up top. If you want a Mac you already know you have to buy an Apple computer. If you want to run Linux natively you likely already know you don’t want a Mac. (Yes, Asahi exists and has done an amazing job, but the Mac doesn’t have official Linux support and the Framework does)
- commandersaki 2y ago
  You can run Linux in a VM on a mac, but you can’t do the opposite on a PC laptop.
MBCook 2y ago
Unfortunately this review doesn’t mention the thing that I’ve come to adore since my M1 (now M3) Air: it’s dead silent since there is no fan. And in my normal use it never gets warm. Ever. I haven’t tried maxing out a game. I’m sure it warms some, but from what I’ve heard it won’t get hot. I know you can get better performance elsewhere. I don’t care. Having my laptop never get hit is a total game changer. My last 2-3 MBPs (Intel) all got hot and it got worse with each model. Do something stressful in the slightest? There’s the WOOSH. I wasn’t expecting to care as much but it’s such a huge QoL thing. I’m not going back to fans. I’m not going back to a hot keyboard. I’m done with it. If I were to get a Framework (or anything else) the ability to get a cool silent (or very close) configuration would be a huge concern for me. Do they offer that? Ive never looked. I’ve been hoping the new ARM PCs might be able to match, at least as more appear, but I read the initial ones all have fans. Outside of the fact I was hoping for comments on that, it was a nice article. It’s not surprising to me that the Air case looks better, unibody construction has a lot of advantages. But it’s expensive to make and repair and would probably make some of the flexibility Framework offers impossible. I was also pleasantly surprised to read the screen was ~200ppi. I know people’s reasons but having been in the >200 club for many years it annoys me to no end so many Windows laptops still ship with 1080p displays on 13 or 15” models.
- lawgimenez 2y ago
  My M2 Air gets very warm when moslty opening either Xcode or Android Studio’s emulator.
- commandersaki 2y ago
  Framework 13” 12th generation Intel can get pretty hot when I do parallel compile jobs. Not scorching hot, but hot tea hot. Can’t let it sit on my exposed thighs. Oh and yeah the framework is noisy. My m1 and m2 air when pegged may get lukewarm.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    That’s what I expected, and there’s not much they can do given the CPU choice they’ve had. Thanks. My personal laptop is an M3, my work laptop is a 2019 Intel MBP. So I feel and hear the difference every day in heat/noise alone. I’m looking forward to the next work upgrade cycle, whenever that ends up being.
chrismartin 2y ago
About the resolution scaling warning in the article: If you're running GNOME, install GNOME Tweaks (likely in your distro's package manager). The "Fonts" section has a "Scaling Factor" option gives you more granular control than a "large text" toggle. Try 1.37 or 1.50. Nearly all my apps respect it (except for OpenSnitch). Everything looks tack-sharp with none of the fractional resolution scaling drama. (I write more about this here: https://cmart.blog/framework-surprise https://cmart.blog/framework-surprise )
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
commandersaki 2y ago
Going to copy/paste from a comment I posted a year or so ago. I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux. The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees. The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours. The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating. All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well. For one C++ project I work on I need 32GB of memory to compile as sometimes the oom-killer will kill the compiler. That's one of the only reasons I use my WSL2 desktop or Framework laptop since memory is cheap.
kn0where 2y ago
The Framework touchpad is unfortunately a lot worse than the haptic touchpads on MacBooks. The click is just a little too mushy, and requires too much force as you click higher up the trackpad. I think there are finally some PC laptops with haptic touchpads, so if Framework starts offering one I’d definitely upgrade my FW13.
ziml77 2y ago
I have a Framework 16 and an 16" M1 MacBook Pro. The Framework 16 has just been a toy to mess around with on the side for me because the MacBook Pro is just so much better: - The difference in battery life between the two is ridiculous. Even with a battery that's fairly degraded from all the charge cycles I've put it through, the MacBook still lasts 3-4 times as long under the same workloads - The quality of the touchpad experience is vastly better on the MacBook, especially because of the excellent haptics (like it's almost magical how much it feels like you're clicking a physical button despite there not being one) - The audio quality from the built in speakers is no contest between the two, the Framework simply sounds like crap - The fans of the Framework seem to be necessary far more often and are whinier sounding than the ones on the MacBook - The display on the Framework doesn't look as good, even when calibrated (I haven't been able to figure out if this is just due to me comparing matte vs glossy here though) The Framework's repairability, modularity, and openness just aren't enough for me to overlook all the negatives. I love and support the goals of Framework and I hope they find ways to improve to the point where it will be easier to choose their laptops over a MacBook.
112233 2y ago
Please recommend a quality clone of framework by a chinese manufacturer
rsynnott 2y ago
> What I want to criticize is that Apple would rather re-add Magsafe than add another USB-C port, making one wonder if they are really clearing out old inventory. Nope; it's not the same as the old MagSafe (it's actually the _third_ incompatible version).
philodeon 2y ago
Calling this a “detailed review” of two laptops when the author continually asserts that they don’t use their laptops as a laptop is pretty audacious.
penguin_booze 2y ago
MacBook with Asahi Linux - how good is the power consumption on that configuration? Does it match that of vanilla MacBook?

47 points by lyricwai 2y ago

> What I want to criticize is that Apple would rather re-add Magsafe than add another USB-C port, making one wonder if they are really clearing out old inventory. This is so minor, but clearly MagSafe isn’t about clearing out old inventory because it’s a different connector than old MagSafe.

cortesoft 2y ago
Also, MagSafe is way better for charging than USB-C, since you can’t damage it if the cable is pulled.
- OJFord 2y ago
  Have you ever had that be a problem though? In my experience USB (any type) pulls out anyway. I do find MagSafe appealing, but not enough, not if it's not what everyone's using. If it were a feature of USB-C it'd be great; as a separate thing, no, I'd rather have a non-magnetic USB-C. (Haven't used the MagSafe port or cable on mine yet, and don't expect to.)
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    Pulling away has generally been fine but I've had USB C cables break due to shearing (laptop at the edge of the table and someone swings their hand while walking past). It doesn't seem break the port thankfully but I do carry a MagSafe cable with me if I remember. The nice thing is if I forget I can still just use USB C again. To be honest the most appealing thing isn't even the accident prevention, it's one of those "slight interaction improvements for something you do hundreds of times over the year" type things in that you bring the cable near and it just clips in, you pull the laptop away or push a little in any direction and it just pops out. Is it a big deal compared to tugging out for a type C cable? No. Is it nice? Yeah.
    - Lawrence001 2y ago
      [dead]
  - svieira 2y ago
    :raises-hand: Yes, I have bent the charging portion of my USB-C on a Mac before but have had zero trouble with the MagSafe versions
  - ghostpepper 2y ago
    USB-C pulls out cleanly only if you pull the cable in a direction roughly parallel to the insertion axis. MagSafe can be pulled from any direction and disconnects cleanly without damage.
  - kstenerud 2y ago
    I've ruined one laptop usb-c port and almost ruined a second from tripping over the cable or the laptop falling off a table and yanking the cord out at a bad angle. The magnetic connectors are awesome! I use them in every laptop. You can buy magnetic adapters super cheap on Amazon.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
    Yes. MagSafe should never have been removed. I can literally just ignore where the power cable is.
  - BurningFrog 2y ago
    I probably haven't, but that's far from the point for me. The big thing is I don't have to have the discipline to always be careful where the charging cable is and adjust my movements to keep it untouched. Cables are cheap. One less thing to worry about is priceless.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    MagSafe saved my butt a few times in the past. Full disclosure that was pre-USB-C. I haven’t “tested” USB-C in that way. But it’s a really great feature. And frees up a USB-C port for other use.
    - OJFord 2y ago
      I agree it's a great feature, it just doesn't trump 'universal' for me. At my desk I want one cable to plug in, and MagSafe can't be it. Travelling if I take USB-C it can charge my phone and earphones too, transfer data if I needed to even. It's just never going to be such a great feature for me to bother finding/carrying the different & extra cable, personally.
- kelnos 2y ago
  In 20 years of having laptops, I have never ever damaged the laptop or power cable by accidentally pulling on it or tripping over it, despite pulling or tripping on it fairly frequently. For some number of years during that time when I had a Mac laptop with MagSafe, I very often accidentally knocked the power cable out, which was always super annoying. I've been using USB-C for charging on three different laptops over the past 8 years or so, and I've been perfectly happy with it. I'm sure some people have damaged laptops with non-MagSafe charging, but I've been more annoyed with MagSafe than I think it's worth.
  - ericpauley 2y ago
    Good for you. I know someone who tripped on a power cable and broke their toe, leading to years of complications. Events with odds lower than 1/20yr can still be worth considering. For what it’s worth I have never used MagSafe on my MacBook but don’t mind that it’s there.
- jacknews 2y ago
  Do the new magsafe pins burn out after a year or two like the old ones? Or the cable insulation sloughs off? And then of course you had to buy an entire new proprietary charger from Apple, not just a 3rd party cable. Or even take the laptop to Apple to replace the laptop's magsafe connector.
  - amomchilov 2y ago
    The burning problem was a SNAFU on the first-gen “T-shaped” connectors. They redesigned gen 1 into an “L-shape”, which fixed it. The cable rubber was always remarkably shit, even with really delicate handling. Lucky now it’s a braided cable, and holding up well so far. Time will tell Lastly, they thankfully made the cable modular, with a USB connection to the brick. Sometimes I use it with a USB-C to C cable, so I can use it with my phone.
krsdcbl 2y ago
I'm rather reading this as a reaction to EU law making standardized usb c mandatory on phones.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  The phones never used this type of MagSafe, MagSafe only phones would still be allowed under the current mandate, and the laptops already supported USB C charging prior to the mandate.
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  How so? MagSafe 3 was first available in 2021 (so probably developed in 2019-2020 timeframe, if not a bit earlier). The mandate didn't come out until 2022, and takes full effect this year. Besides, you can still charge the laptops with USB-C, the MagSafe option is just that, an option.
mPReDiToR 2y ago
Try this: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EyK6Rjh https://a.aliexpress.com/_EyK6Rjh I use them in phones, laptops, Flipper Zero, anything which takes USB C.

dheera 2y ago

I have a Framework, because I much prefer Linux, and don't want to spend more than market prices on SSD and RAM. It's the best Linux laptop I have ever owned. However, I do have to admit the Macbook just has a better build quality, and Framework could up their game here. Especially the bezel, the general "gritty" feel of the aluminum, the cheap feeling to the pluggable modules. Reflections in the screen are not mirror-like, they are wavy. The screen resolution and brightness could also be higher by a notch; it's impossible to use the Framework in sunlight but I think Macbooks are in fact barely useable in the sun.

MostlyStable 2y ago
Some of those could definitely be improved, but also, I do think that it is much, much easier to build a "premium" feeling product when you can seal the whole thing together and don't have to worry about repairs or upgrades. It's one reason while, why I'm personally a big fan of framework and their philosophy (my 16 just arrived the other day), I also know that they aren't for everyone. Repairable, upgradeable, modular, hardware comes with real trade-offs and not everyones value function will prefer those trade-offs.
- MBCook 2y ago
  It’s easy to avoid seams if you don’t have them in the first place by milling a huge chunk of the laptop one out one chunk of aluminum. But that’s expensive. And I agree with you it’d likely make upgrades/repairs much harder or more expensive and may remove modularity all together.
lousken 2y ago
In terms of display, framework 16 can definitely hold on its own against macbook. I saw no difference in terms of brightness (only when I downloaded an app for macbook to use HDR to boost it beyond maximum), resolution was also perfectly fine and couldn't see a difference. 165Hz however feels ever so slightly more smooth. The notch on the mac looks ugly af though and was first thing i disabled and I much prefer the look of framework. What I don't like about the framework is definitely the aluminium sides that you use to position the touchpad. The tolerances are too high and it makes it look like a prototype. Honestly I would buy just a simple bottom piece with no adjustments possible, center is fine for me

renewiltord 2y ago

I actually really miss this style of blog post that was really common back in the day. Very human-like. What is the multi-touch scene like on the Framework? I used to be Ubuntu-primary and the one thing it wasn't good at was things like scrolling in 4 directions. On my Mac, I can move many web things left and right and diagonally, but on my Ubuntu laptop (likely as a constraint of the laptop I had) I could only move along the axes. On something like Excalidraw, for instance, I just move like I have my fingers on the screen. It's great on my Macbook. Is it like that on Linux? I think I might well buy one soon with this and DHH recommending. I just bought another Asus ROG Zephyrus laptop and got Ubuntu running on it. I have yet to try LLMs on the built-in 4090, but I'm excited about that. Thank you for the review!

luyu_wu 2y ago

Just a random thought, it's amazing how competitive a startup can be when compared to a company that has orders of magnitude more R&D funds! Tradtionally, I would think hardware products would have a relatively large moat!

killingtime74 2y ago
Well the MacBook air is the cut down budget product. The Framework can't compare to the MacBook Pro. The mini led screen, the battery life, the performance, the speakers. I wish it did because I much prefer Linux to MacOS
- jagger27 2y ago
  Asahi has come pretty far!
  - killingtime74 2y ago
    Yep, keen to use it at some point!
- stkdump 2y ago
  It's not like the Air is half the price of the Framework.
  - killingtime74 2y ago
    It's true but it's not like me or my company are trying to save money when buying my primary laptop
    - stkdump 2y ago
      Oh, good for you! I guess there is a sizable population even with software developers for whom money is some concern. I mean I can't be the only one...

flakiness 2y ago

The author doesn't care about either the keyboard or the display because external parts are used... Maybe a mini PC is a better option for him?

sandyarmstrong 2y ago
Or the battery :P
cortesoft 2y ago
Right? This is like doing a car review, but continually pointing out that you are just going to leave it parked in front of your house so you don’t care about how it drives.
wrsh07 2y ago
I think this is right, but optionality is valuable. I'm curious if a $500 mini PC plus a bottomed out mb air would suffice (maybe not! Having all your stuff on your laptop can be useful) For all that, I haven't considered a Mac mini even though I'm probably an ideal user. It doesn't help that it's on the m2 instead of m3, though. (Or m4, which is in iPads?) I probably should
- macNchz 2y ago
  I have a high-end DIY Linux desktop and a base model M1 Air that I got for $750. I think it’s a good pairing. The laptop works well as sort of a thin client to the desktop for real work. If I didn’t have the desktop I’d definitely want more RAM, and probably a machine with a fan. Despite what many people say, I’ve had no trouble getting it to run OOM or start thermal throttling. I wanted to try a Linux laptop, but in the end I felt having a ton of battery life was ultimately my top priority when away from my desk. I don’t much care for what Apple is doing with MacOS, but their hardware really is great.
  - wrsh07 2y ago
    At Google we all had good Linux desktops at our desk and did work via ssh and I rather enjoyed it. I mostly don't even need a powerful desktop (but the cost curve is so attractive vs laptops)

simpaticoder 2y ago

My first-gen Framework 13 with Ubuntu is usable, but has major issues around power. Battery life is very poor compared to ordinary laptops (I get ~3 hours of web browsing and light coding), and compared to M-series Macbooks (which have extraordinary battery life >8 hours) it is abysmal. Suspend/resume often fails in strange ways, and occasionally even power on is problematic (e.g. battery is full but it won't turn on without being plugged into a charger). Repair-ability and running OSS software is an idealistic goal that I share, however in practical terms the need to repair a laptop is very rare. So when it breaks, I'll be well ahead of the curve; when it doesn't, which is most of the time, I'm behind the curve.

linguae 2y ago
I also have a Framework 13, and I agree that Apple’s ARM laptops have amazing performance per watt. The reason I have a Framework 13 instead of an ARM Mac is user-serviceability and cost savings. There is 32GB of RAM in my Framework, and at any time I could choose to upgrade to 64GB whenever necessary. However, because RAM in ARM Macs is integrated into the system and is not a separate user-replaceable component, I must purchase the maximum amount of RAM I could afford upfront, which is prohibitively expensive for me. I also do not like how storage is built-in instead of available as NVMe M.2 modules. I miss the days of my 2006 MacBook and my 2013 Mac Pro, which were both easy to upgrade. It’s this lack of upgradability in recent Macs that led me to switch to PCs despite my preference for macOS over Windows and desktop Linux. With that said, if a company offered me the choice between a PC or a Mac, I’d pick the Mac every time. It’s different when someone else is paying ;).
- MBCook 2y ago
  I’m firmly in team Mac. And I really don’t care about upgradability that much. I’m OK with buying up front. But Apple’s BTO prices are, as everyone knows, totally insane. Combined with pathetic base amounts it really burns people. I know a lot of Mac fans who keep putting off upgrades because it costs so much to get a decent config.
  - deleted 2y ago

wpm 2y ago

Non inverted-T arrow keys make the Framework 13 a non-starter for me. I hated the full size Left/Right keys on the post Retina MacBook Pros, and Apple didn’t change it back just for me either so I don’t get why any manufacturer would try it.

kibwen 2y ago
The keyboard is swappable. On the storefront here I can see keyboards that do have the inverted-T: https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards
- wpm 2y ago
  Those are all for the Framework 16. Quite a big weight (almost an entire kilo), size, and price (799 vs 1399 USD) jump to get arrow keys I can move my hand to by feel alone 100% of the time.

spaceguillotine 2y ago

why do they always choose the Air and not a laptop that also has active cooling like the Framework. I want framework to succeed because i like the idea of modularity but c'mon, go against a MacBook Pro at least.

zamadatix 2y ago
There's no good direct comparison that checks all the boxes of fairness while being something that makes much sense to order for the given products. If you go against a MacBook Pro to make the cooling type even then you've pretty much excluded comparing to any typical Framework build combo unless you're willing to compare to an absolutely anemic version of the Pro at a still likely higher cost. There will be some things each wins/loses on but, in the end, it doesn't make sense to get that version of the Pro anyways as the Pro really only starts to make balanced sense at the $2000 and up mark, right after where the Framework upgrades stop making sense. One comparison that would involve the Pro is "best hardware I can buy regardless of the cost" but not many people ask that question and the answer is either going to be an obvious "a high end Pro" or "Framework because I need Linux and the M3 hardware isn't the best for that".

danpalmer 2y ago

One key thing not mentioned is OS support. I own an M2 MBA for personal use, and have an M2 MBP at work, specifically because they feature macOS. I realise that is not to everyone's taste, but it is mine, it's where I'm productive, and what I enjoy using. This is a spec-point worth something to me as a result. For those who prefer Linux, that may be a spec point worth something too! I love many things about the Framework laptops, and hope Apple learns from them on those things, but ultimately I'm still on Macs because that spec point is worth so much to me.

zamadatix 2y ago
> One key thing not mentioned is OS support. OS support is the final section, they gave it a point for having solid Linux support.
- ghostpepper 2y ago
  That section should be called Linux support then, because Macs clearly support macOS better than anyone else. I'd even argue that macs support macOS better than any hardware supports linux.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    The author's commentary is definitely personal and biased towards that. That said macOS isn't necessarily the golden example of perfect hardware support by its OEM either, e.g. Linux supported hardware accelerated GIC support on Apple silicon 2 years before Apple did. macOS generally does better about it than 99% of other options do their respective hardware but I'd leave room for exception.
chrismartin 2y ago
The "Operating System" section of the article touches on this. Most of Framework's employees use Linux, to the extent that the CEO himself runs Windows, to shake out any glitches with Windows support. [0] It's a tiny mom & pop shop compared to Apple! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEc43CxIvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEc43CxIvY

pixelesque 2y ago

Calling the 7840U 16-core is a little disingenuous IMO: it's got 8 cores, and can do SMT...

aurareturn 2y ago
And it's definitely slower in most tasks than the M2.

langsoul-com 2y ago

Cannot really compare framework to air m2. Just the chip alone makes a major difference. But most importantly, being modular adds extra weight and size. So completely different leagues. Better off comparing the arm windows laptop to the air m2

MBCook 2y ago
You’re right they’re both aiming for a very different ideal. Mac is more towards integrated/small/light/seamless. Framework is more expandable/serviceable/upgradable/tinkerable.

mertbio 2y ago

I can’t really see the detailed part of the review. You can simply open the web page of the both products and see the things mentioned in the blog post yourself.

zamadatix 2y ago
Doing so will get you more accurate information too as e.g. the CPU in the Framework laptop is an 8 core CPU, not a 16 core.

plussed_reader 2y ago

This reviewer seems really bitter about what Apple can manage with hardware where framework can't quite meet. The processor comparison seems woefully out of touch, among other points.

zamadatix 2y ago

I desperately wanted to get a Framework laptop but they are so oddly priced. Some of it's on stuff you can opt out of, other bits aren't. Overall it seems nice to use but so hard to justify anything but the base options. On the stuff you can opt out of: Their 2x16 GB DDR5-5600 costs nearly as much as 2x32 GB DDR5-5600. The exact same model of WD 4 TB drive costs $250 more than WD sells it for on Amazon. Based on the $1640 price it looks like the author didn't opt to order these separate despite picking the DIY option. On the stuff you can't opt out of: It's $300 price difference to go up to the 7840U. On the 16 it's another $200 to go up from the 7840HS to the 7940HS. Considering right now I can get a barebone 7940HS mini pc for $432 after instant coupon on Amazon it seems a bit steep to have the price _difference_ between the 7640U and 7940HS be $500. You can also get an external 2560x1600 120 Hz 500 nit monitor for less than the price to upgrade from the 60hz to 120hz option on the Framework. I get high base cost for a niche product but the overall spread here is just excessive when the whole point is supposed to be how much the flexibility opens things up. What good are replaceable parts if replacing them will quickly cost more than just buying a new laptop outright? The Linux support is nice but it's not like it's the only AMD or Intel laptop with Linux certified accessories out of the box around.

ggregoire 2y ago

> Operating System: [...] I already use Linux, so the Framework 13 wins. Should probably start the review with this. I'm not gonna buy a Framework 13 if I want to use macOS, and vice versa.

MBCook 2y ago
I didn't know the author’s opinion, and I skipped that section given I know my own preferences already. But I think it’s fine it wasn’t up top. If you want a Mac you already know you have to buy an Apple computer. If you want to run Linux natively you likely already know you don’t want a Mac. (Yes, Asahi exists and has done an amazing job, but the Mac doesn’t have official Linux support and the Framework does)
commandersaki 2y ago
You can run Linux in a VM on a mac, but you can’t do the opposite on a PC laptop.

MBCook 2y ago

Unfortunately this review doesn’t mention the thing that I’ve come to adore since my M1 (now M3) Air: it’s dead silent since there is no fan. And in my normal use it never gets warm. Ever. I haven’t tried maxing out a game. I’m sure it warms some, but from what I’ve heard it won’t get hot. I know you can get better performance elsewhere. I don’t care. Having my laptop never get hit is a total game changer. My last 2-3 MBPs (Intel) all got hot and it got worse with each model. Do something stressful in the slightest? There’s the WOOSH. I wasn’t expecting to care as much but it’s such a huge QoL thing. I’m not going back to fans. I’m not going back to a hot keyboard. I’m done with it. If I were to get a Framework (or anything else) the ability to get a cool silent (or very close) configuration would be a huge concern for me. Do they offer that? Ive never looked. I’ve been hoping the new ARM PCs might be able to match, at least as more appear, but I read the initial ones all have fans. Outside of the fact I was hoping for comments on that, it was a nice article. It’s not surprising to me that the Air case looks better, unibody construction has a lot of advantages. But it’s expensive to make and repair and would probably make some of the flexibility Framework offers impossible. I was also pleasantly surprised to read the screen was ~200ppi. I know people’s reasons but having been in the >200 club for many years it annoys me to no end so many Windows laptops still ship with 1080p displays on 13 or 15” models.

lawgimenez 2y ago
My M2 Air gets very warm when moslty opening either Xcode or Android Studio’s emulator.
commandersaki 2y ago
Framework 13” 12th generation Intel can get pretty hot when I do parallel compile jobs. Not scorching hot, but hot tea hot. Can’t let it sit on my exposed thighs. Oh and yeah the framework is noisy. My m1 and m2 air when pegged may get lukewarm.
- MBCook 2y ago
  That’s what I expected, and there’s not much they can do given the CPU choice they’ve had. Thanks. My personal laptop is an M3, my work laptop is a 2019 Intel MBP. So I feel and hear the difference every day in heat/noise alone. I’m looking forward to the next work upgrade cycle, whenever that ends up being.

chrismartin 2y ago

About the resolution scaling warning in the article: If you're running GNOME, install GNOME Tweaks (likely in your distro's package manager). The "Fonts" section has a "Scaling Factor" option gives you more granular control than a "large text" toggle. Try 1.37 or 1.50. Nearly all my apps respect it (except for OpenSnitch). Everything looks tack-sharp with none of the fractional resolution scaling drama. (I write more about this here: https://cmart.blog/framework-surprise https://cmart.blog/framework-surprise )

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

commandersaki 2y ago

Going to copy/paste from a comment I posted a year or so ago. I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux. The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees. The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours. The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating. All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well. For one C++ project I work on I need 32GB of memory to compile as sometimes the oom-killer will kill the compiler. That's one of the only reasons I use my WSL2 desktop or Framework laptop since memory is cheap.

kn0where 2y ago

The Framework touchpad is unfortunately a lot worse than the haptic touchpads on MacBooks. The click is just a little too mushy, and requires too much force as you click higher up the trackpad. I think there are finally some PC laptops with haptic touchpads, so if Framework starts offering one I’d definitely upgrade my FW13.

ziml77 2y ago

I have a Framework 16 and an 16" M1 MacBook Pro. The Framework 16 has just been a toy to mess around with on the side for me because the MacBook Pro is just so much better: - The difference in battery life between the two is ridiculous. Even with a battery that's fairly degraded from all the charge cycles I've put it through, the MacBook still lasts 3-4 times as long under the same workloads - The quality of the touchpad experience is vastly better on the MacBook, especially because of the excellent haptics (like it's almost magical how much it feels like you're clicking a physical button despite there not being one) - The audio quality from the built in speakers is no contest between the two, the Framework simply sounds like crap - The fans of the Framework seem to be necessary far more often and are whinier sounding than the ones on the MacBook - The display on the Framework doesn't look as good, even when calibrated (I haven't been able to figure out if this is just due to me comparing matte vs glossy here though) The Framework's repairability, modularity, and openness just aren't enough for me to overlook all the negatives. I love and support the goals of Framework and I hope they find ways to improve to the point where it will be easier to choose their laptops over a MacBook.

112233 2y ago

Please recommend a quality clone of framework by a chinese manufacturer

rsynnott 2y ago

> What I want to criticize is that Apple would rather re-add Magsafe than add another USB-C port, making one wonder if they are really clearing out old inventory. Nope; it's not the same as the old MagSafe (it's actually the _third_ incompatible version).

philodeon 2y ago

Calling this a “detailed review” of two laptops when the author continually asserts that they don’t use their laptops as a laptop is pretty audacious.

penguin_booze 2y ago

MacBook with Asahi Linux - how good is the power consumption on that configuration? Does it match that of vanilla MacBook?