24 ms·

Notes on Tajikistan

373 points by petesivak 2y ago

colonCapitalDee 2y ago
I listened to https://www.theredlinepodcast.com/post/tajikistan-and-regional-command-structures-the-armed-forces-of-central-asia https://www.theredlinepodcast.com/post/tajikistan-and-region... yesterday. It's an extremely interesting discussion on the geopolitical factors both internal and external that shape Tajikistan's security sitation, and who's interests Tajikistan's security dysfunction serves.
lye 2y ago
> The government and locals don’t like when you bring up Borat Depends on which locals. Younger generations never really cared about this. All my friends have always found the movies hilarious, especially the first one. When the sequel was released, the government finally started acting like adults: https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4 https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4 I'm pretty sure this is also caused by generational change in the government.
- nradov 2y ago
  At one point the government of Kazakhstan threatened legal action over Borat and Sacha Baron Cohen hilariously responded in character. “I fully support my government’s position to sue this Jew.” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/borat-seen-as-human-rights-131546/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/bor...
  - ranni_ending 2y ago
    yeah at another point he distanced himself from making racist movies about country he has 0 idea about. then you bring up an example of him trying to hide behind his Jewish identity to be above criticism as a "joke". it's trivial to punch down and then act like a victim by bringing up your own identity. People who find it easy to make fun of others while being extremely thin-skinned themselves: https://www.timesofisrael.com/sacha-baron-cohen-tells-tiktok-its-creating-biggest-antisemitic-movement-since-nazis/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/sacha-baron-cohen-tells-tiktok... for a legitimate dissent on his holy cow country. I imagine making fun of Israel in the same vein and making a movie about it in the same style would get anyone blacklisted in Hollywood. There will be 10 OP-EDs about how that's antisemitic and disrespectful. But because it's Kazakhstan nobody gives a shit and we're supposed to suck it up and laugh with others a la Oldboy. It might be hilarious to you, but for ethnic Kazakhs it isn't (self-respecting ones at least).
    - culebron21 2y ago
      I live in Kazakhstan as expat, and locals are brought up patriotic pretty much like in America -- national anthem at school every day (I shivered when I learned about it, both about KZ and America), told they're the richest post-soviet country. So the movie that plays the anthem and highlights so much that he's from Kazakhstan (although he looks nothing like a Kazakh), looks like a serious insult. (edit: to be exact, I don't mean he mocks this partiotism, there's nothing to do with it in the movie.) I've been told that the true meaning was to film Americans with candid camera and laugh at how stupid they are, but to me, Borat is the only thing people utter when I say where I am, so it's pretty annoying. OTOH, given this popularity, nat. govt could have paid some petro-uranium-dollars to Cohen for some tourism commercials.
      - lye 2y ago
        Maybe this has changed in recent years, or it's different in the south or the west of the country where more "ultra-patriots" live, but it wasn't my experience at all in the middle of 2000s. We had to listen to the national anthem several times per year on national holidays, and perform other token gestures like that, but nobody took it seriously and these actions were relentlessly ridiculed. Not because of lack of patriotism, but because of the synthetic and bureaucratic feeling of the whole deal. So the parody misses the mark. Borat is really about the US society anyway, they could have picked absolutely anything else and it wouldn't make a difference. > But Borat is the only thing people utter when I say where I live now Own it and as soon as people see you don't care, they drop the subject. The joke was old ten years ago.
        culebron21 2y ago
        I didn't mean he parodied the patriotism. I mean to serious patriots, this is a slap in the face, even when in fact it says nothing of Kz at all.
    - DEADMINCE 2y ago
      He's not punching down or hiding behind an ethnic identity, he's mocking the idea of someone being upset over a parody/mockery/comedy.
babi_ 2y ago
i had the opportunity to travel to central asia last summer for a couple weeks (both uzbekistan and tajikistan, briefly). was really a fascinating trip to a part of the world that i barely knew anything about! for those who are curious about traveling in central asia in general, there is a great travel blog of sorts called caravanistan -> https://caravanistan.com/forum/ https://caravanistan.com/forum/ the main website is useful for travel logistics but i find myself returning to the forum pretty often to see travel updates from people on the ground in those places. really interesting to me to read about various border crossings between countries, what to expect when traveling around/between countries, etc
- ChuffedToBits 2y ago
  I found their map of border crossings in Central Asia the best source for current and accurate information and very helpful as a shared Google Maps map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Ml8xrhk9Jwr00_GdccYtBrEYScU&femb=1&ll=37.38759716068435%2C79.74287294999999&z=2 https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Ml8xrhk9Jwr00_Gdcc...
OutOfHere 2y ago
Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires constant wilful effort. In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either sharia or terrorism. Because it's done through extreme human rights violations such as torture, kidnapping, kangaroo courts, etc [0]. This only radicalizes the Jihadist movements, who's hardcore believers went into exile Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Syria, etc and became extremely prominent in the Islamic State movement (eg. The former head of Tajikistan's Spetznaz defected to ISIS back in 2015 and became their War Minister). ISKP is extremely Tajik in leadership, and this has helped them commit mass casualty attacks like the Kerman Bombings and the Moscow Theatre Siege Once Emomali Rahmon dies, the Civil War will restart. > bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors. Countries like India have had Air Force bases and boots on the ground in Tajikistan for decades [1] --------- If in San Francisco or New York, I recommend checking out Halal Dastarkhan or Farida's, Tandir Rokhat (Bukharan Jewish), Aziza 7, and Salute (Bukharan Jewish) respectively. The owners are all ethnic Tajiks from Uzbekistan. Bukhara is ethnic Tajik but in Uzbekistan because Stalin. [0] - https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/tajikistan https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/tajik... [1] - https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060422/main6.htm https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060422/main6.htm
  - slt2021 2y ago
    really tough choice for a government: violate human rights of opposition or descend into ISIS/afghon
rvense 2y ago
An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet Union, that are very openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks but were usually allowed to run free. The people were hospitable and open and very happy to have guests in their country, but it also seemed like a very bleak place, with few good prospects for the future.
- ssijak 2y ago
  Your description does not sound like an amazing place that you said it is in the first sentence?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - geoka9 2y ago
    Some of the most beautiful mountain scenery I've ever seen and very hospitable people. A very nice place to visit. Not a very good place to live though unless you're so rich that you don't have to rely on the local infrastructure and services for survival and quality of life.
    - ssijak 2y ago
      I find life to also be bad if you are the only rich person isolated in a bubble when 99% of the people are in extreme poverty. You just can't feel good, unless you don't care.
      - brnt 2y ago
        Also, sharp gradients inherently incentivize attempts to equalise. It is an unstable situation.
medwards666 2y ago
I spent a fortnight with a small group of friends motorcycling along the Pamir highway back in 2022, then another week or so over in Kazakhstan (off the bikes this time). Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go travel and get off the beaten track.
- stef25 2y ago
  Dream trip. Your own bikes ? How "free" were you and how difficult was it ? I've traveled by motorbike on 4 continent now and am dying to visit central asia to do more of that.
  - ChuffedToBits 2y ago
    Not too difficult, really. Kyrgystan and Tajikistan especially are very popular with bicycle travelers, there's an established tourist infrastructure in the form of guest houses and homestays. Border crossings into Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are a nightmare (on some crossings they will demand your unlocked phone to rifle through and have you unpack ALL you luggage onto a blanket). Once you're in the countries it's usually just the odd corrupt official, but I was able to out-wait and charm my way out of those situations. Biggest headache imho: Almost every Westerner I met had some kind of digestive problem. I suffered from diarrhea coming and going for about two months. There's motorcycle rentals and guided tours out of Osh, Kyrgyzstan, that will also tour the Pamir Highway and Wakhan Valley in Tajikistan. Highly recommend you check out photos from the area around the Issyk Kil Lake on Google Maps. It's just stunning up there.
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
I wanted to go once but heard that either the taliban or al queda were in the area, which is unideal as an American citizen. Is that not the case anymore?
- geoka9 2y ago
  Taliban (across the Panj river) has been a threat until recently. But for now they seem to be friends with Russia and Tajikistan has always been a Russian client state.
  - rvense 2y ago
    Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in Tajikistan? I know people go back and forth over the river (I went to Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so there's contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit of going to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like that?
    - geoka9 2y ago
      I haven't heard of any, FWIW. And they are the official government in Afghanistan now, so I would think it's not their thing anymore? (I can be wrong, of course.)
    - ashilfarahmand 2y ago
      > Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in Tajikistan? I know people go back and forth over the river (I went to Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so there's contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit of going to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like that? I don't think they have. It also wouldn't really make sense for them to do that. The Taliban mostly have issues with Iran and Pakistan so you will see conflicts with these nations most often in the news. I've never heard of them in conflict with any of the other stans. Badakhshan is also quite distant from the core of Taliban power which is mostly in the South. Northern Afghanistan is traditionally Northern Alliance territory.
      - 2y ago
culebron21 2y ago
The Beatles haircut is also common in Dagestan in Russia, being source of jokes (e.g. https://imgur.com/a/eiGyw7E https://imgur.com/a/eiGyw7E)
- mc32 2y ago
  That's because they were back in the USSR!
numbers 2y ago
I love this style of writing and how it introduces a place I almost never thought about before. I didn't know anything about Tajikstan except its name so this was all new information. Thank you!
- navane 2y ago
  I liked his style too: "hoarding wealth like a Crusader King" is such a novel analogy.
wbl 2y ago
So snow at 13,000 feet in the summer, deep inland. How has there not been attempts to develop this for alpine sports? The quality of the snowfall plus the terrain seems made for it.
- layer8 2y ago
  As mentioned towards the end of TFA, there is a ski resort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Dara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Dara
justsomehnguy 2y ago
> Sadly, the Dushanbe flagpole lost its status as the world’s tallest in 2014, only three years after its construction, to the Jeddah Flagpole in Saudi Arabia, which I have already seen without knowing its illustrious status in the world flagpole standings: > I have to admit that I find it kind of funny that Tajikistan spent $3.5 million to win an extremely petty international prestige project contest, and then it lost a few years later to a country with 30X the GDP per capita and 100X the GDP. Saudi Arabia’s lead lasted for seven years until Egypt took the top spot and Russia slid into second place Quite amusing to see how a man writes about -stan and Saudi Arabia but his mind is firmly not on these countries. > On this particular point and some others, I wondered whether my companion had an overly rosy and maybe sanitized view of Tajik culture, which isn’t uncommon for immigrants to have toward their homeland. Or maybe he didn't want to speak freely with some foreign rando. Especially some foreign rando from America. Cue in the next three paragraphs. > due to an apparent combination of local fashion sensibilities and I guess fabulous Persian hair That's a funny observation but this is how you instantly recognize Tajik from any other guy from Central Asia. > How can two countries have so many military fights that result in direct casualties, including straight-up artillery barrages over the border, and not actually declare war on one another? > I have no idea. I have no idea how some country can travel to literally the other side of the planet and yet not actually declare war on the country it is invading. *shrug_emoji* > And of the better armed one-third, I swear, most didn’t have clips in their AKs. Meaning, they either carried no ammo or only a single round in the chamber. Or they are required not to have a loaded magazine[0] in the firearm because they aren't in the constant direct threat and don't have a need to respond instantly. I know, it's hard to comprehend to someone from "I bring a loaded AR in Taco Bell (along with two Glocks and assortments of EDC tactical knifes) else I'm feel like naked" nation, but no magazine in a firearm doesn't mean there is no magazines at all. > Claim 2: The “Taj” in “Taj Mahal” refers to the Tajik people. After the turmoils of 1990s many ex-USSR countries tried to invent their ancient connections, so if you hear something along that - keep a salt shaker nearby. > Buzkashi Oh, yes, a lot of this types of.. activities in the Central Asia. The included video is hilarious for the reaction of the announcer and the comments[1] Overall this article is.. obviously biased by the US-tinted glasses. I found myself reading it for the author perspective, less for the actual content. [0] Yes, it's a magazine: > Clip (firearms) > Not to be confused with Magazine (firearms). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(firearms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(firearms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms) [1] It's in the article but if you are lost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUn8MsEyPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUn8MsEyPs
loeg 2y ago
The whole thing is great and worth reading, but I wanted to highlight this anecdote: > I asked about the criminal justice system and I was told there wasn’t much of a formal one. My companion explained that most matters were handled internally by families. For instance, if a 20-something got in a fight with another 20-something and the cops got involved, the police would most likely contact the families and let the parents and brothers sort that shit out with a warning not to cause trouble again. The families would enforce order through shaming, threats of social ostracization, and possibly physical violence.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Honestly that’s kind of nice compared to our “one mistake and your life is ruined forever” system but I guess it all comes down to how violent their country is and if those tactics actually work.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    No, it is not “kind of nice”. That’s how you get blood feuds and honour killings. It might be better than a thoroughly corrupt police force, but it is not the rule of law.
    - dyauspitr 2y ago
      That’s not a given. Some cultures have worked out not to involve the law all that much without devolving into blood feuds and outright violence. The first ones that come to mind are Southern India and SE Asia that don’t have a lot of police presence and their societies have low levels of violence. I just don’t know if Tajikistan is one of them.
      - kergonath 2y ago
        > The first ones that come to mind are Southern India and SE Asia that don’t have a lot of police presence and their societies have low levels of violence. As long as you behave, are not of the wrong minority, do not end up as scapegoats, do not get close to the wrong social group, and do not cross anyone who’s a bit charismatic. Also, I am not sure which SE Asia you speak of. Myanmar is a genocidal military dictatorship, Thailand is a totalitarian police state, Singapore is a quasi-dictatorship, the Philippines are rife with violence, and I could go on. Sure, some countries of the lot are better but “SE Asia” overall is not really an example to emulate. And every time I went there, southern India did not look that different from central India, or particularly pleasant if you are in the wrong family or social group. Anyway. Yes, I’ll take a half competent police and a decent legal system any day.
Log_out_ 2y ago
And there it is again that cultural inability to build institutions beyond "family". How is that culture compatibel with complex states and compamies in east and west? With longterm development in general? Then again it has thriving families, compared to the west and east, whos societies dissolve once the rewards of modernity appear. The ideal would be a cycling hybrid i guess. Inb4 those weirdos who go all in on nurture, but then refuse to discuss nurture, leaving the terrain to conspiracies and racists. Also the hospitality is pretty legendary.
optimalsolver 2y ago
Be sure to check out his Notes on the Gambia, which for some reason is the world's premier destination for female sex tourism: https://mattlakeman.org/2023/07/10/notes-on-the-gambia/ https://mattlakeman.org/2023/07/10/notes-on-the-gambia/
- ngcc_hk 2y ago
  Quite a good article on Gambia, but just get you to want to know more about the chinese involvement there on top of Russia. Btw, the sex part is not a click bait and not important part of the article. The usual failed African politics and economy is usual. Just want to know any “success” story. Even if it is odd by western “standard”.
  - optimalsolver 2y ago
    Botswana?
theanonymousone 2y ago
Not so new fact that many here may already know: The (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian, is an etymological cousin of State, Street, Statistics, Strategy and Stadt. In Iran, provinces are called Ostan and some Ostans' names end with -stan (e.g. Ostan of Kurdistan). By the way, since it's not clear from their names, it may be worth noting that Tajiki and Persian are two dialects of the same language.
- sumedh 2y ago
  > (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian Does it come from Persian or some common Indo European language, Sanskrit has something similar as well.
  - theanonymousone 2y ago
    I always thought it's Persian, but it may be older, and it does certainly have cognates in Sanskrit too. Wiktionary is amazing for such information.
  - hot_gril 2y ago
    It's an extremely old word
- lordofgibbons 2y ago
  The -istan suffix means "land of". Similar to ScotLand, IreLand, etc. So Tajikistan means: the land of Tajiks, Afghanistan means the land of Afghans, Kurdistan means the land of Kurds, etc
- hyperbolablabla 2y ago
  *Farsi. Persia doesn't exist anymore. I find it strange that somewhat uniquely people refer to Iran by its ancient name. We're not speaking anglo-saxonish
  - theanonymousone 2y ago
    Persia doesn't exist anymore, and I referenced to the country as Iran, if you check a bit more carefully. The language, however, is spoken by roughly 100 million people, so I believe it is safe to assume that it still exists. Farsi is an endonym, just like the official language of Austria which is known in English as "German" and not Deutsch, its endonym.
RecycledEle 2y ago
> all rolled into one beautiful, weird, dysfunctional country, and I couldn’t get enough of it. I do not see dysfunctional countries as beautiful. I prefer well functioning countries where things get done and people understand each other. I guess the author likes to see people suffer?
- nlitened 2y ago
  I prefer cakes, but I also like steaks and vegetable salads. On some days, I go for a pho soup, or pasta, or fried rice with chicken. It would be a shame to only have known cakes my entire life.
- rdlw 2y ago
  You can't see beauty in a country that isn't perfect? I know plenty of people who have some flaw they would probably be better off without, but I don't say "I don't see imperfect people as beautiful, and if you do it means you like to see them suffer." Why do you jump to calling the author sadistic for finding the positive in a complicated situation?
  - RecycledEle 2y ago
    > You can't see beauty in a country that isn't perfect? A country is beautiful if it serves its people. Seeing beauty in dysfunction is sadism.
    - rdlw 2y ago
      Neither I nor the author are saying that the dysfunction is beautiful, just that a country can be both dysfunctional and beautiful. I think it's a pretty extreme viewpoint to say that any dysfunction negates everything else beautiful about a country.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  Is a country that changes the value of a citizen's vote based on whether they live in a populated area functional? What about a country where the elections are about choosing between two obnoxious candidates who are both over 80 and out of touch with the issues their citizens care about? If the supporters of one geriatric statesman call the supporters of the other Nazis (both directions) - does that count as understanding each other?
specproc 2y ago
I did some work in Tajikistan a while back. Really good fun with some great people. It was also the most vertically integrated place I've ever encountered. I've worked in a lot of places outside of EU/US and it's the only one where I've felt you could stick most people on the country on an organigram.
- danpalmer 2y ago
  Can you give some examples of the vertical integration? Perhaps some of the good and bad aspects of it?
  - specproc 2y ago
    Sorry for the slow response, don't check my threads as much as I could. This was back when I was in the aid business, so the gig involved a lot of going around and talking to all sorts of people: local community organisations, farmers, processing plants, schools, local government reps. A lot of it's the sort of vibes you pick up doing this sort of thing for a while, and having other contexts to base a comparison on. I felt a clear chain running down from the top to bottom. I live in another post-Soviet place, it's a lot more chaotic: still one big man at the top, but the vibe is more of a graph than a tree. Good things and bad things, well that's almost philosophical. It's one of the poorest countries in the region, one couldn't help but think it might be doing better if there was more space for independent action. On the plus side, the architecture in Dushanbe (a comparatively new city) was gorgeous. If you've just got one company doing the architecture and build for everything, you get a nice harmony to the place.
furyg3 2y ago
I'm regularly going to Tajikistan for hiking trips to help map out the Pamir Trail, a 1200km long hiking trail across the mountains of Tajikistan. https://www.pamirtrail.org https://www.pamirtrail.org It's a beautiful country if you love hiking or mountaineering, though certainly has a lot of practical challenges. The article did a very good job of explaining the local situation in Tajikistan and giving you a bit of a feeling of what it's like to be there.
- konart 2y ago
  Kind of saddens me that while I was born there - I never had a chance to see any of this.
frakt0x90 2y ago
Article claims Tajikistan is shaped like nonsense when it's clearly a snorkeling mask.
- n00shie 2y ago
  I always considered it looked like a rabbit!
n00shie 2y ago
Great article, always happy to see my home country featured abroad. Just to nitpick, however: > Got independence from the USSR in 1991 and had some power struggles until a Soviet guy took over in 1994 and then won a brutal civil war against a coalition of Islamic extremists and has been running the country ever since Calling it Islamic extremists is a bit reductive. The coalition (United Tajik Opposition) was with the Islamic Renaissance Party, a couple of pro-democracy parties which were supported by the majority of the intelligentsia, and also included a party for Pamiri Autonomy. The most common thing among them is they were all united against the Communists. Source: I am Tajik and was born around the Soviet Union collapsed. Also studied the history of the civil war
plastic_bag 2y ago
I visited Tajikistan last summer and spent about three weeks in the country. One week in Khujand (I crossed the border from Uzbekistan) and Dushanbe, and two weeks in the Pamirs. Just like the author I (from India) travelled with a couple of Europeans, a German girl and a French guy. I very much enjoyed my time there, especially in the Pamirs. I stayed with a local family who hosted me in Khorog. I went hiking, watched Afghan villages from across the border, and also worked remotely.
hackum 2y ago
Yeah, as someone who grew up in Tajikistan myself - can confirm most of the observations (like 99% is very accurate). I never noticed any special love for Americans tbh, probably the dude just didn't know anything about European countries your friends were from. Mostly people love any tourists (for different reasons, but never sincerely :) )

373 points by petesivak 2y ago

I listened to https://www.theredlinepodcast.com/post/tajikistan-and-regional-command-structures-the-armed-forces-of-central-asia https://www.theredlinepodcast.com/post/tajikistan-and-region... yesterday. It's an extremely interesting discussion on the geopolitical factors both internal and external that shape Tajikistan's security sitation, and who's interests Tajikistan's security dysfunction serves.

lye 2y ago

> The government and locals don’t like when you bring up Borat Depends on which locals. Younger generations never really cared about this. All my friends have always found the movies hilarious, especially the first one. When the sequel was released, the government finally started acting like adults: https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4 https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4 I'm pretty sure this is also caused by generational change in the government.

nradov 2y ago
At one point the government of Kazakhstan threatened legal action over Borat and Sacha Baron Cohen hilariously responded in character. “I fully support my government’s position to sue this Jew.” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/borat-seen-as-human-rights-131546/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/bor...
- ranni_ending 2y ago
  yeah at another point he distanced himself from making racist movies about country he has 0 idea about. then you bring up an example of him trying to hide behind his Jewish identity to be above criticism as a "joke". it's trivial to punch down and then act like a victim by bringing up your own identity. People who find it easy to make fun of others while being extremely thin-skinned themselves: https://www.timesofisrael.com/sacha-baron-cohen-tells-tiktok-its-creating-biggest-antisemitic-movement-since-nazis/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/sacha-baron-cohen-tells-tiktok... for a legitimate dissent on his holy cow country. I imagine making fun of Israel in the same vein and making a movie about it in the same style would get anyone blacklisted in Hollywood. There will be 10 OP-EDs about how that's antisemitic and disrespectful. But because it's Kazakhstan nobody gives a shit and we're supposed to suck it up and laugh with others a la Oldboy. It might be hilarious to you, but for ethnic Kazakhs it isn't (self-respecting ones at least).
  - culebron21 2y ago
    I live in Kazakhstan as expat, and locals are brought up patriotic pretty much like in America -- national anthem at school every day (I shivered when I learned about it, both about KZ and America), told they're the richest post-soviet country. So the movie that plays the anthem and highlights so much that he's from Kazakhstan (although he looks nothing like a Kazakh), looks like a serious insult. (edit: to be exact, I don't mean he mocks this partiotism, there's nothing to do with it in the movie.) I've been told that the true meaning was to film Americans with candid camera and laugh at how stupid they are, but to me, Borat is the only thing people utter when I say where I am, so it's pretty annoying. OTOH, given this popularity, nat. govt could have paid some petro-uranium-dollars to Cohen for some tourism commercials.
    - lye 2y ago
      Maybe this has changed in recent years, or it's different in the south or the west of the country where more "ultra-patriots" live, but it wasn't my experience at all in the middle of 2000s. We had to listen to the national anthem several times per year on national holidays, and perform other token gestures like that, but nobody took it seriously and these actions were relentlessly ridiculed. Not because of lack of patriotism, but because of the synthetic and bureaucratic feeling of the whole deal. So the parody misses the mark. Borat is really about the US society anyway, they could have picked absolutely anything else and it wouldn't make a difference. > But Borat is the only thing people utter when I say where I live now Own it and as soon as people see you don't care, they drop the subject. The joke was old ten years ago.
      - culebron21 2y ago
        I didn't mean he parodied the patriotism. I mean to serious patriots, this is a slap in the face, even when in fact it says nothing of Kz at all.
  - DEADMINCE 2y ago
    He's not punching down or hiding behind an ethnic identity, he's mocking the idea of someone being upset over a parody/mockery/comedy.

babi_ 2y ago

i had the opportunity to travel to central asia last summer for a couple weeks (both uzbekistan and tajikistan, briefly). was really a fascinating trip to a part of the world that i barely knew anything about! for those who are curious about traveling in central asia in general, there is a great travel blog of sorts called caravanistan -> https://caravanistan.com/forum/ https://caravanistan.com/forum/ the main website is useful for travel logistics but i find myself returning to the forum pretty often to see travel updates from people on the ground in those places. really interesting to me to read about various border crossings between countries, what to expect when traveling around/between countries, etc

ChuffedToBits 2y ago
I found their map of border crossings in Central Asia the best source for current and accurate information and very helpful as a shared Google Maps map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Ml8xrhk9Jwr00_GdccYtBrEYScU&femb=1&ll=37.38759716068435%2C79.74287294999999&z=2 https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Ml8xrhk9Jwr00_Gdcc...

OutOfHere 2y ago

Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires constant wilful effort. In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors.

alephnerd 2y ago
> Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either sharia or terrorism. Because it's done through extreme human rights violations such as torture, kidnapping, kangaroo courts, etc [0]. This only radicalizes the Jihadist movements, who's hardcore believers went into exile Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Syria, etc and became extremely prominent in the Islamic State movement (eg. The former head of Tajikistan's Spetznaz defected to ISIS back in 2015 and became their War Minister). ISKP is extremely Tajik in leadership, and this has helped them commit mass casualty attacks like the Kerman Bombings and the Moscow Theatre Siege Once Emomali Rahmon dies, the Civil War will restart. > bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its neighbors. Countries like India have had Air Force bases and boots on the ground in Tajikistan for decades [1] --------- If in San Francisco or New York, I recommend checking out Halal Dastarkhan or Farida's, Tandir Rokhat (Bukharan Jewish), Aziza 7, and Salute (Bukharan Jewish) respectively. The owners are all ethnic Tajiks from Uzbekistan. Bukhara is ethnic Tajik but in Uzbekistan because Stalin. [0] - https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/tajikistan https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/tajik... [1] - https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060422/main6.htm https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060422/main6.htm
- slt2021 2y ago
  really tough choice for a government: violate human rights of opposition or descend into ISIS/afghon

rvense 2y ago

An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet Union, that are very openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks but were usually allowed to run free. The people were hospitable and open and very happy to have guests in their country, but it also seemed like a very bleak place, with few good prospects for the future.

ssijak 2y ago
Your description does not sound like an amazing place that you said it is in the first sentence?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- geoka9 2y ago
  Some of the most beautiful mountain scenery I've ever seen and very hospitable people. A very nice place to visit. Not a very good place to live though unless you're so rich that you don't have to rely on the local infrastructure and services for survival and quality of life.
  - ssijak 2y ago
    I find life to also be bad if you are the only rich person isolated in a bubble when 99% of the people are in extreme poverty. You just can't feel good, unless you don't care.
    - brnt 2y ago
      Also, sharp gradients inherently incentivize attempts to equalise. It is an unstable situation.

medwards666 2y ago

I spent a fortnight with a small group of friends motorcycling along the Pamir highway back in 2022, then another week or so over in Kazakhstan (off the bikes this time). Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go travel and get off the beaten track.

stef25 2y ago
Dream trip. Your own bikes ? How "free" were you and how difficult was it ? I've traveled by motorbike on 4 continent now and am dying to visit central asia to do more of that.
- ChuffedToBits 2y ago
  Not too difficult, really. Kyrgystan and Tajikistan especially are very popular with bicycle travelers, there's an established tourist infrastructure in the form of guest houses and homestays. Border crossings into Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are a nightmare (on some crossings they will demand your unlocked phone to rifle through and have you unpack ALL you luggage onto a blanket). Once you're in the countries it's usually just the odd corrupt official, but I was able to out-wait and charm my way out of those situations. Biggest headache imho: Almost every Westerner I met had some kind of digestive problem. I suffered from diarrhea coming and going for about two months. There's motorcycle rentals and guided tours out of Osh, Kyrgyzstan, that will also tour the Pamir Highway and Wakhan Valley in Tajikistan. Highly recommend you check out photos from the area around the Issyk Kil Lake on Google Maps. It's just stunning up there.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago

I wanted to go once but heard that either the taliban or al queda were in the area, which is unideal as an American citizen. Is that not the case anymore?

geoka9 2y ago
Taliban (across the Panj river) has been a threat until recently. But for now they seem to be friends with Russia and Tajikistan has always been a Russian client state.
- rvense 2y ago
  Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in Tajikistan? I know people go back and forth over the river (I went to Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so there's contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit of going to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like that?
  - geoka9 2y ago
    I haven't heard of any, FWIW. And they are the official government in Afghanistan now, so I would think it's not their thing anymore? (I can be wrong, of course.)
  - ashilfarahmand 2y ago
    > Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in Tajikistan? I know people go back and forth over the river (I went to Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so there's contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit of going to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like that? I don't think they have. It also wouldn't really make sense for them to do that. The Taliban mostly have issues with Iran and Pakistan so you will see conflicts with these nations most often in the news. I've never heard of them in conflict with any of the other stans. Badakhshan is also quite distant from the core of Taliban power which is mostly in the South. Northern Afghanistan is traditionally Northern Alliance territory.
    - 2y ago

culebron21 2y ago

The Beatles haircut is also common in Dagestan in Russia, being source of jokes (e.g. https://imgur.com/a/eiGyw7E https://imgur.com/a/eiGyw7E)

mc32 2y ago
That's because they were back in the USSR!

numbers 2y ago

I love this style of writing and how it introduces a place I almost never thought about before. I didn't know anything about Tajikstan except its name so this was all new information. Thank you!

navane 2y ago
I liked his style too: "hoarding wealth like a Crusader King" is such a novel analogy.

wbl 2y ago

So snow at 13,000 feet in the summer, deep inland. How has there not been attempts to develop this for alpine sports? The quality of the snowfall plus the terrain seems made for it.

layer8 2y ago
As mentioned towards the end of TFA, there is a ski resort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Dara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Dara

justsomehnguy 2y ago

> Sadly, the Dushanbe flagpole lost its status as the world’s tallest in 2014, only three years after its construction, to the Jeddah Flagpole in Saudi Arabia, which I have already seen without knowing its illustrious status in the world flagpole standings: > I have to admit that I find it kind of funny that Tajikistan spent $3.5 million to win an extremely petty international prestige project contest, and then it lost a few years later to a country with 30X the GDP per capita and 100X the GDP. Saudi Arabia’s lead lasted for seven years until Egypt took the top spot and Russia slid into second place Quite amusing to see how a man writes about -stan and Saudi Arabia but his mind is firmly not on these countries. > On this particular point and some others, I wondered whether my companion had an overly rosy and maybe sanitized view of Tajik culture, which isn’t uncommon for immigrants to have toward their homeland. Or maybe he didn't want to speak freely with some foreign rando. Especially some foreign rando from America. Cue in the next three paragraphs. > due to an apparent combination of local fashion sensibilities and I guess fabulous Persian hair That's a funny observation but this is how you instantly recognize Tajik from any other guy from Central Asia. > How can two countries have so many military fights that result in direct casualties, including straight-up artillery barrages over the border, and not actually declare war on one another? > I have no idea. I have no idea how some country can travel to literally the other side of the planet and yet not actually declare war on the country it is invading. *shrug_emoji* > And of the better armed one-third, I swear, most didn’t have clips in their AKs. Meaning, they either carried no ammo or only a single round in the chamber. Or they are required not to have a loaded magazine[0] in the firearm because they aren't in the constant direct threat and don't have a need to respond instantly. I know, it's hard to comprehend to someone from "I bring a loaded AR in Taco Bell (along with two Glocks and assortments of EDC tactical knifes) else I'm feel like naked" nation, but no magazine in a firearm doesn't mean there is no magazines at all. > Claim 2: The “Taj” in “Taj Mahal” refers to the Tajik people. After the turmoils of 1990s many ex-USSR countries tried to invent their ancient connections, so if you hear something along that - keep a salt shaker nearby. > Buzkashi Oh, yes, a lot of this types of.. activities in the Central Asia. The included video is hilarious for the reaction of the announcer and the comments[1] Overall this article is.. obviously biased by the US-tinted glasses. I found myself reading it for the author perspective, less for the actual content. [0] Yes, it's a magazine: > Clip (firearms) > Not to be confused with Magazine (firearms). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(firearms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(firearms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms) [1] It's in the article but if you are lost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUn8MsEyPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUn8MsEyPs

loeg 2y ago

The whole thing is great and worth reading, but I wanted to highlight this anecdote: > I asked about the criminal justice system and I was told there wasn’t much of a formal one. My companion explained that most matters were handled internally by families. For instance, if a 20-something got in a fight with another 20-something and the cops got involved, the police would most likely contact the families and let the parents and brothers sort that shit out with a warning not to cause trouble again. The families would enforce order through shaming, threats of social ostracization, and possibly physical violence.

dyauspitr 2y ago
Honestly that’s kind of nice compared to our “one mistake and your life is ruined forever” system but I guess it all comes down to how violent their country is and if those tactics actually work.
- kergonath 2y ago
  No, it is not “kind of nice”. That’s how you get blood feuds and honour killings. It might be better than a thoroughly corrupt police force, but it is not the rule of law.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    That’s not a given. Some cultures have worked out not to involve the law all that much without devolving into blood feuds and outright violence. The first ones that come to mind are Southern India and SE Asia that don’t have a lot of police presence and their societies have low levels of violence. I just don’t know if Tajikistan is one of them.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      > The first ones that come to mind are Southern India and SE Asia that don’t have a lot of police presence and their societies have low levels of violence. As long as you behave, are not of the wrong minority, do not end up as scapegoats, do not get close to the wrong social group, and do not cross anyone who’s a bit charismatic. Also, I am not sure which SE Asia you speak of. Myanmar is a genocidal military dictatorship, Thailand is a totalitarian police state, Singapore is a quasi-dictatorship, the Philippines are rife with violence, and I could go on. Sure, some countries of the lot are better but “SE Asia” overall is not really an example to emulate. And every time I went there, southern India did not look that different from central India, or particularly pleasant if you are in the wrong family or social group. Anyway. Yes, I’ll take a half competent police and a decent legal system any day.

Log_out_ 2y ago

And there it is again that cultural inability to build institutions beyond "family". How is that culture compatibel with complex states and compamies in east and west? With longterm development in general? Then again it has thriving families, compared to the west and east, whos societies dissolve once the rewards of modernity appear. The ideal would be a cycling hybrid i guess. Inb4 those weirdos who go all in on nurture, but then refuse to discuss nurture, leaving the terrain to conspiracies and racists. Also the hospitality is pretty legendary.

optimalsolver 2y ago

Be sure to check out his Notes on the Gambia, which for some reason is the world's premier destination for female sex tourism: https://mattlakeman.org/2023/07/10/notes-on-the-gambia/ https://mattlakeman.org/2023/07/10/notes-on-the-gambia/

ngcc_hk 2y ago
Quite a good article on Gambia, but just get you to want to know more about the chinese involvement there on top of Russia. Btw, the sex part is not a click bait and not important part of the article. The usual failed African politics and economy is usual. Just want to know any “success” story. Even if it is odd by western “standard”.
- optimalsolver 2y ago
  Botswana?

theanonymousone 2y ago

Not so new fact that many here may already know: The (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian, is an etymological cousin of State, Street, Statistics, Strategy and Stadt. In Iran, provinces are called Ostan and some Ostans' names end with -stan (e.g. Ostan of Kurdistan). By the way, since it's not clear from their names, it may be worth noting that Tajiki and Persian are two dialects of the same language.

sumedh 2y ago
> (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian Does it come from Persian or some common Indo European language, Sanskrit has something similar as well.
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  I always thought it's Persian, but it may be older, and it does certainly have cognates in Sanskrit too. Wiktionary is amazing for such information.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  It's an extremely old word
lordofgibbons 2y ago
The -istan suffix means "land of". Similar to ScotLand, IreLand, etc. So Tajikistan means: the land of Tajiks, Afghanistan means the land of Afghans, Kurdistan means the land of Kurds, etc
hyperbolablabla 2y ago
*Farsi. Persia doesn't exist anymore. I find it strange that somewhat uniquely people refer to Iran by its ancient name. We're not speaking anglo-saxonish
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  Persia doesn't exist anymore, and I referenced to the country as Iran, if you check a bit more carefully. The language, however, is spoken by roughly 100 million people, so I believe it is safe to assume that it still exists. Farsi is an endonym, just like the official language of Austria which is known in English as "German" and not Deutsch, its endonym.

RecycledEle 2y ago

> all rolled into one beautiful, weird, dysfunctional country, and I couldn’t get enough of it. I do not see dysfunctional countries as beautiful. I prefer well functioning countries where things get done and people understand each other. I guess the author likes to see people suffer?

nlitened 2y ago
I prefer cakes, but I also like steaks and vegetable salads. On some days, I go for a pho soup, or pasta, or fried rice with chicken. It would be a shame to only have known cakes my entire life.
rdlw 2y ago
You can't see beauty in a country that isn't perfect? I know plenty of people who have some flaw they would probably be better off without, but I don't say "I don't see imperfect people as beautiful, and if you do it means you like to see them suffer." Why do you jump to calling the author sadistic for finding the positive in a complicated situation?
- RecycledEle 2y ago
  > You can't see beauty in a country that isn't perfect? A country is beautiful if it serves its people. Seeing beauty in dysfunction is sadism.
  - rdlw 2y ago
    Neither I nor the author are saying that the dysfunction is beautiful, just that a country can be both dysfunctional and beautiful. I think it's a pretty extreme viewpoint to say that any dysfunction negates everything else beautiful about a country.
riehwvfbk 2y ago
Is a country that changes the value of a citizen's vote based on whether they live in a populated area functional? What about a country where the elections are about choosing between two obnoxious candidates who are both over 80 and out of touch with the issues their citizens care about? If the supporters of one geriatric statesman call the supporters of the other Nazis (both directions) - does that count as understanding each other?

specproc 2y ago

I did some work in Tajikistan a while back. Really good fun with some great people. It was also the most vertically integrated place I've ever encountered. I've worked in a lot of places outside of EU/US and it's the only one where I've felt you could stick most people on the country on an organigram.

danpalmer 2y ago
Can you give some examples of the vertical integration? Perhaps some of the good and bad aspects of it?
- specproc 2y ago
  Sorry for the slow response, don't check my threads as much as I could. This was back when I was in the aid business, so the gig involved a lot of going around and talking to all sorts of people: local community organisations, farmers, processing plants, schools, local government reps. A lot of it's the sort of vibes you pick up doing this sort of thing for a while, and having other contexts to base a comparison on. I felt a clear chain running down from the top to bottom. I live in another post-Soviet place, it's a lot more chaotic: still one big man at the top, but the vibe is more of a graph than a tree. Good things and bad things, well that's almost philosophical. It's one of the poorest countries in the region, one couldn't help but think it might be doing better if there was more space for independent action. On the plus side, the architecture in Dushanbe (a comparatively new city) was gorgeous. If you've just got one company doing the architecture and build for everything, you get a nice harmony to the place.

furyg3 2y ago

I'm regularly going to Tajikistan for hiking trips to help map out the Pamir Trail, a 1200km long hiking trail across the mountains of Tajikistan. https://www.pamirtrail.org https://www.pamirtrail.org It's a beautiful country if you love hiking or mountaineering, though certainly has a lot of practical challenges. The article did a very good job of explaining the local situation in Tajikistan and giving you a bit of a feeling of what it's like to be there.

konart 2y ago
Kind of saddens me that while I was born there - I never had a chance to see any of this.

frakt0x90 2y ago

Article claims Tajikistan is shaped like nonsense when it's clearly a snorkeling mask.

n00shie 2y ago
I always considered it looked like a rabbit!

n00shie 2y ago

Great article, always happy to see my home country featured abroad. Just to nitpick, however: > Got independence from the USSR in 1991 and had some power struggles until a Soviet guy took over in 1994 and then won a brutal civil war against a coalition of Islamic extremists and has been running the country ever since Calling it Islamic extremists is a bit reductive. The coalition (United Tajik Opposition) was with the Islamic Renaissance Party, a couple of pro-democracy parties which were supported by the majority of the intelligentsia, and also included a party for Pamiri Autonomy. The most common thing among them is they were all united against the Communists. Source: I am Tajik and was born around the Soviet Union collapsed. Also studied the history of the civil war

plastic_bag 2y ago

I visited Tajikistan last summer and spent about three weeks in the country. One week in Khujand (I crossed the border from Uzbekistan) and Dushanbe, and two weeks in the Pamirs. Just like the author I (from India) travelled with a couple of Europeans, a German girl and a French guy. I very much enjoyed my time there, especially in the Pamirs. I stayed with a local family who hosted me in Khorog. I went hiking, watched Afghan villages from across the border, and also worked remotely.

hackum 2y ago

Yeah, as someone who grew up in Tajikistan myself - can confirm most of the observations (like 99% is very accurate). I never noticed any special love for Americans tbh, probably the dude just didn't know anything about European countries your friends were from. Mostly people love any tourists (for different reasons, but never sincerely :) )