5 ms·

Why would anyone use java over kotlin for new projects? At least for server side development, kotlin has proved to be far superior to us.

bradboimler 2y ago
I find modern Java an absolute joy to program in. Kotlin doesn't solve any major problems I have with Java.
rmrfchik 2y ago
Because Kotlin as a mess language and have poor IDE support. $ kotlin Welcome to Kotlin version 1.6.10 (JRE 21.0.1+12-Debian-2) Type :help for help, :quit for quit >>> val b=ByteArray(1); >>> b[0] == 0; error: operator '==' cannot be applied to 'Byte' and 'Int' b[0] == 0; ^ $ jshell | Welcome to JShell -- Version 21.0.1 | For an introduction type: /help intro jshell> byte[] ba={0} ba ==> byte[1] { 0 } jshell> ba[0]==0 $2 ==> true upd: format
simon_void 2y ago
I prefer Kotlin over Java as well. I use it at work (where Java code has a tendency to become Kotlin code if it comes close to me) and at home. I'm looking forward to seeing how the native and wasm backends might extends the reach of Kotlin in the future.
DarkNova6 2y ago
Because syntax is the boring part of programming.
- Mesopropithecus 2y ago
  I agree with that, but null safety would be a big deal for correctness.
- favorited 2y ago
  Manually writing getters and setters is also pretty boring, in my experience.
  - vips7L 2y ago
    That's purely your choice on the libraries you use. Nothing in the language is forcing you to do this. Getter/setters are just a requirement of JPA which you don't have to use. In fact if you just use jOOQ or query dsl you can map to Java records.
    - favorited 2y ago
      The language isn't forcing it, but idiomatic Java (and decades of Java-based university training) is. Pretty much every professional Java project I've ever seen is full of code like: private Map<String, Client> clients; public Map<String, Client> getClients() { return clients; } public void setClients(Map<String, Client> clients) { this.clients = clients; } Kotlin's approach, where you declare and instantiate a property, and the getter/setter/backing storage are synthesized for you, is vastly preferable to me: public var clients = emptyMap<String, Client>()
      - vips7L 2y ago
        I just disagree. This is not idiomatic Java; it's idiomatic JPA. All of the Java I see professionally and in the community uses immutable classes when not dealing with JPA entities.
        favorited 2y ago
        I guess you live in a more modern workspace than I do. I just picked an open source project that (A) I know we use at work, and (B) I know is written in Java. I picked a random source file that sounded like it would have some mutable state, and the very first functions below the constructor were a trivial getter and setter around a private ivar. https://github.com/apache/solr/blob/main/solr/core/src/java/org/apache/solr/parser/QueryParser.java#L39 https://github.com/apache/solr/blob/main/solr/core/src/java/... I'm a little surprised it was in literally the first place I looked, but I'm not surprised that it was easy to find. "Use private ivars and write getters and setters to encapsulate your state" was probably the second thing that a generation of CompSci students learned in their first programming class, right after "an object is an instance of a class."
- agumonkey 2y ago
  They also had nice features like conditional type inference right ?
  - simon_void 2y ago
    Kotlin has type inference and smart-casting, which i guess is what you mean!?
    - agumonkey 2y ago
      Most probably, sorry I lost track of languages changelog there's so many of them these days. Just saying, kotlin wasn't just a more aesthetically pleasing java, there were some deeper benefits as far as i can tell.
binkHN 2y ago
It's definitely not limited to the server side of things. Obviously it's the standard for Android app development and, largely, a pleasure to work with.
pjmlp 2y ago
Because Kotlin is a guest language, designed to sell InteliJ. Like C (alongside C++) and UNIX, JavaScript and Web, CLR and C#, JVM and Java are designed together, and have first class tooling in all Java IDEs.
eitland 2y ago
At work I use Kotlin. At home I often use Java. My main reason for using it for my personal hobby projects is because I prefer another IDE. And Kotlin is only supported by IntelliJ, which I admit is a really good ide, but not my favorite.
- kernal 2y ago
  There are Kotlin plugins for Eclipse, VS Code, NetBeans, etc...
  - eitland 2y ago
    Last I checked they only did syntax highlighting, not completion. And Jetbrains were rather clear that it was not a priority. I am happy to be wrong now though. Edit, this is a good step forward, here is the list from NetBeans, the "Toyota Hilux" of IDEs and my favorite: Language Feature Support Status File type recognition √ Project type Semantic syntax highlighting √ Formatting √ Braces matching √ Code completion √ Error Hints/Fixes/Suggestions Code templates Refactoring Debugging At the pace this is moving now I don't know what will stop me from only using Kotlin in the feature.
    - kernal 2y ago
      The VS Code Kotlin plugin also supports the following: Code completion Linting Semantic highlighting Debugging Go-to-definition Signature help Hover Formatting Document symbols Find references
  - rmrfchik 2y ago
    Can you share plugin for NetBeans? Last time I checked it was some outdated plugin from JetBrains (who, obviously, aren't interested in any other IDE).

bradboimler 2y ago

I find modern Java an absolute joy to program in. Kotlin doesn't solve any major problems I have with Java.

rmrfchik 2y ago

Because Kotlin as a mess language and have poor IDE support. $ kotlin Welcome to Kotlin version 1.6.10 (JRE 21.0.1+12-Debian-2) Type :help for help, :quit for quit >>> val b=ByteArray(1); >>> b[0] == 0; error: operator '==' cannot be applied to 'Byte' and 'Int' b[0] == 0; ^ $ jshell | Welcome to JShell -- Version 21.0.1 | For an introduction type: /help intro jshell> byte[] ba={0} ba ==> byte[1] { 0 } jshell> ba[0]==0 $2 ==> true upd: format

simon_void 2y ago

I prefer Kotlin over Java as well. I use it at work (where Java code has a tendency to become Kotlin code if it comes close to me) and at home. I'm looking forward to seeing how the native and wasm backends might extends the reach of Kotlin in the future.

DarkNova6 2y ago

Because syntax is the boring part of programming.

Mesopropithecus 2y ago
I agree with that, but null safety would be a big deal for correctness.
favorited 2y ago
Manually writing getters and setters is also pretty boring, in my experience.
- vips7L 2y ago
  That's purely your choice on the libraries you use. Nothing in the language is forcing you to do this. Getter/setters are just a requirement of JPA which you don't have to use. In fact if you just use jOOQ or query dsl you can map to Java records.
  - favorited 2y ago
    The language isn't forcing it, but idiomatic Java (and decades of Java-based university training) is. Pretty much every professional Java project I've ever seen is full of code like: private Map<String, Client> clients; public Map<String, Client> getClients() { return clients; } public void setClients(Map<String, Client> clients) { this.clients = clients; } Kotlin's approach, where you declare and instantiate a property, and the getter/setter/backing storage are synthesized for you, is vastly preferable to me: public var clients = emptyMap<String, Client>()
    - vips7L 2y ago
      I just disagree. This is not idiomatic Java; it's idiomatic JPA. All of the Java I see professionally and in the community uses immutable classes when not dealing with JPA entities.
      - favorited 2y ago
        I guess you live in a more modern workspace than I do. I just picked an open source project that (A) I know we use at work, and (B) I know is written in Java. I picked a random source file that sounded like it would have some mutable state, and the very first functions below the constructor were a trivial getter and setter around a private ivar. https://github.com/apache/solr/blob/main/solr/core/src/java/org/apache/solr/parser/QueryParser.java#L39 https://github.com/apache/solr/blob/main/solr/core/src/java/... I'm a little surprised it was in literally the first place I looked, but I'm not surprised that it was easy to find. "Use private ivars and write getters and setters to encapsulate your state" was probably the second thing that a generation of CompSci students learned in their first programming class, right after "an object is an instance of a class."
agumonkey 2y ago
They also had nice features like conditional type inference right ?
- simon_void 2y ago
  Kotlin has type inference and smart-casting, which i guess is what you mean!?
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    Most probably, sorry I lost track of languages changelog there's so many of them these days. Just saying, kotlin wasn't just a more aesthetically pleasing java, there were some deeper benefits as far as i can tell.

binkHN 2y ago

It's definitely not limited to the server side of things. Obviously it's the standard for Android app development and, largely, a pleasure to work with.

pjmlp 2y ago

Because Kotlin is a guest language, designed to sell InteliJ. Like C (alongside C++) and UNIX, JavaScript and Web, CLR and C#, JVM and Java are designed together, and have first class tooling in all Java IDEs.

eitland 2y ago

At work I use Kotlin. At home I often use Java. My main reason for using it for my personal hobby projects is because I prefer another IDE. And Kotlin is only supported by IntelliJ, which I admit is a really good ide, but not my favorite.

kernal 2y ago
There are Kotlin plugins for Eclipse, VS Code, NetBeans, etc...
- eitland 2y ago
  Last I checked they only did syntax highlighting, not completion. And Jetbrains were rather clear that it was not a priority. I am happy to be wrong now though. Edit, this is a good step forward, here is the list from NetBeans, the "Toyota Hilux" of IDEs and my favorite: Language Feature Support Status File type recognition √ Project type Semantic syntax highlighting √ Formatting √ Braces matching √ Code completion √ Error Hints/Fixes/Suggestions Code templates Refactoring Debugging At the pace this is moving now I don't know what will stop me from only using Kotlin in the feature.
  - kernal 2y ago
    The VS Code Kotlin plugin also supports the following: Code completion Linting Semantic highlighting Debugging Go-to-definition Signature help Hover Formatting Document symbols Find references
- rmrfchik 2y ago
  Can you share plugin for NetBeans? Last time I checked it was some outdated plugin from JetBrains (who, obviously, aren't interested in any other IDE).