4 ms·

Not just that, but it's just plain cheaper and more efficient with commonplace broadband. You don't have to pay for making CDs/DVDs (paying for a master is qui

Not just that, but it's just plain cheaper and more efficient with commonplace broadband. You don't have to pay for making CDs/DVDs (paying for a master is quite expensive, and the rewriteable ones have poor shelf life and can't be mass-produced nearly as quickly), you don't have to pay for postage, and you're not stuck with whatever's on the master since you can just update your data in your datacenter at any time. I'm just sad that no one's come up with a really good, user-writeable long-term bulk storage solution. CD-Rs and later DVD-Rs were supposed to serve this need, but while they seemed like a ton of space in the 90s, they're tiny now, and later we all found out, the hard way, that the stupid things decay rather rapidly. Now we have BD-Rs but here again the storage size is just too small, and only a fool would trust them to last.

xnorswap 2y ago
Archive tape existed well before and well after optical discs. These days, you can fit up to 18TB on a tape. OK, so some smartass will pop up and say that doesn't even fit a RAM dump from some machines, but for most archiving purposes, tape has been consistently the best option for the past 50 years.
ViktorRay 2y ago
DVD-R’s are actually still super commonplace in the medical field. They’re the perfect way to provide patients their medical images in a cheap physical format that is readable by all electronic medical systems.
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  I often request Canadian government records through freedom of information, and they keep sending 10mb PDFs on CD-Rs. They’ve improved a bit recently, but was annoying for a while. Also learned that a PS4 (or was it a PS5?) cannot open PDFs :(
- paradox460 2y ago
  My local place gave me my MRI on a branded thumb drive. After I took it to my Ortho, he said I could use the drive for whatever I wanted
- Arrath 2y ago
  Unfortunately, drives are not so common these days. I had to go buy an external USB DVD drive to see the images given to me after a scan, just last year.
- ozim 2y ago
  Great feature of DVD-Rs is that someone across the globe cannot just connect to it and steal medical data.
  - beardedwizard 2y ago
    And the doctor across the globe can never access it to save the patients life.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      How about, hear me out for a sec, you email/file-share the data off the disc to the doctor abroad in those cases when you need to. Mind-blowing, right? If it's indeed a life saving situation as you say, a doctor will have to do scans there and not wait to receive possibly outdated imaging data from another country Also, no hospital in my country is just gonna release my private medical records on the spot because a doctor from another country called and told them to. There's some formal paperwork that needs to be signed by the pacient and if you're in a coma then you can't sign it and if it's an emergency you don't have time for that whole process so they'll have to perform the scans there. The case of having to quickly send/receive pacient data to or from doctors abroad is not something most public hospitals in my country are prepped for not will they since it's super niche case and in case of emergency they'll do the scans on the spot.
    - adrianN 2y ago
      How often is that a problem?
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        It could be a problem any time someone travels.
        adrianN 2y ago
        I have a hard time believing that it’s possible to set up a legal and technical framework where patient data can be safely accessed internationally faster than doing another X-ray or whatever might be currently distributed by CD.
- NavinF 2y ago
  Kaiser emails you the DICOM medical images along with an app for reading them. Most hospitals offer this so I'd expect medical DVDs to die in another decade. The vast majority of PCs and laptops don't come with optical drives and that's been the case for many years now.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Kaiser emails you the DICOM medical images along with an app for reading them. Most hospitals offer this Not in my country. Due to strong data protection regulations most radiology shops don't Email the x-ray files to you. They either send it directly to your GP via the official government mandated channel, or they hand it to you physically in print or disc but never email due to the chance of not arriving to its destination or worse, going to someone else due to human or technical errors. >The vast majority of PCs and laptops don't come with optical drives and that's been the case for many years now. That's irelevant because they're not made for you to read them at home but for your doctor or other healthcare facilities to read them, and all these businesses have disc drives on premises and will most likely do so for decades
- holoduke 2y ago
  Which country? I am absolutely sure that here in the Netherlands its never the case. Always by email or printed in rare cases. Less than 1% owns a optical disc nowadays.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Less than 1% owns a optical disc nowadays. Sources? That seems way too low. I would expect most people have at least one CD hidden somewhere in an attic or similar. I don't have an optical drive connected to any working PC (nor a music CD player) myself, but I still have some CDs lying around the house. Eg a book about learning guitar that I bought second-hand came with a CD.
    - gnabgib 2y ago
      I imagine they meant drive (not just media). But agreed, do people with game consoles (that splurged for the drive), CD/MiniDisc/SACD/DVD/BluRay/HD DVD/Laser disc players, CD/DVD/BluRay burners, older cars, older PCs/laptops/Mac minis, boom boxes, CDJs.. or multiples thereof not bring the average up? I have a PERL Cookbook with a mint CD sealed in the cover.
      - eru 2y ago
        I suspect the percentage of drive owners is a lot lower. But I don't think it would be as low as 1%? If you restrict to 'drives connected to a multi-purpose device so they can eg display medical images sent on disk' the percentage goes lower (but not sure whether all the way to 1%), because most people wouldn't try to use their game consoles for that.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        I don't know about a percentage of households I know, but I do know of several households with literally zero means to play back any physical media. No DVD or Blu-ray players, cars don't have CD players, no computers with optical drives, no game consoles, only maybe a Switch for a game console. I imagine it's still far from most, but it's definitely starting to be a thing.
- internet101010 2y ago
  They are not the perfect way to get medical images. A friend called me last week to borrow my external drive because the MRI place gave him a stupid CD he had no drive for. For what these places charge they should be giving out USB drives like candy. They are so cheap that Micro Center sells 64gb at the counter for like $3 or something. CD/DVD is not a valid option.
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    cheap USB drives have bad data retention. they will not be readable 3 years later if left unpowered and without a chance to relocate/rewrite data. DVD-Rs will last 20ish years
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Cheap "Chinesium" USB drives can be wildly unreliable, plus they're not write protectable meaning your data could be overwritten or deleted by a shitty app/antivirus, or just get malware transmitted over it. Optical media has the native feature of being written in immutable sessions so your older data is always preserved instead of overwritten(excluding RW media), and also can be write protected when desired by finalizing the session, plus its long data retention shelf life for archiving purposes compared to cheap flash, all make it a great choice for the uses cases of the medical industry file transfer or personal archival at home.
- solardev 2y ago
  I hate this about that field. I had to scrounge up an external DVD drive from the garage, convert the images and load them onto a medical imaging app on my phone... so that I could show the doctor, who otherwise had to keep going back and forth to another room in the clinic to talk to the tech. I don't understand why they can't just load it on a website (like MyChart) like any other lab data. The images are big (contains more than pixel data, like xyz layers and gamma) but still compressible. I don't know if it's HIPAA or tradition, but it really bugs me that I have to keep a DVD drive around solely for imaging. It's like the situation with the IRS and faxing :(
NavinF 2y ago
IMO the concept of long-term bulk storage doesn't really make sense: Most of your stuff will be recycled by your grandkids. While you're alive, you can just buy a couple of NAS, stash one at a friend's/parent's place, buy the cheapest $/TB storage, use raidz to automatically correct errors over time, and set it up to email you every time it had to resiver to a hot spare so you can buy another HDD >only a fool would trust them to last Heh, head over to /r/DataHoarder to see more of that. "but this time it's different, my coasters don't use organic dyes!"
- lencastre 2y ago
  Tell me more about raidz and resiver…
  - NavinF 2y ago
    Hm? It automatically replaces the dead drive with a hot spare over a couple of days. You can also do it in a couple of hours with dRAID: https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Basic%20Concepts/dRAID%20Howto.html https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Basic%20Concepts/dRAI... You just need a couple of parity drives per vdev and one hot spare for the whole array
- eru 2y ago
  > Most of your stuff will be recycled by your grandkids. Could you explain this? Why would they do that?
  - NavinF 2y ago
    - Most people are not as interesting as they think they are - It's unlikely that your grandkids would have the same interests as you - If anything in your NAS was relevant to the family, your SO would have kept a copy of it in her icloud instead of using your self-hosted photo viewer over tailscale - Once you're old you almost certainly won't be using modern software and file formats. Accessing your data will be incredibly inconvenient
    - 2y ago
eru 2y ago
> I'm just sad that no one's come up with a really good, user-writeable long-term bulk storage solution. Tape would be pretty good, wouldn't it? Or magneto-optical media.
- NavinF 2y ago
  That would be one of the worst options. Finding a working tape drive in the future will be inconvenient enough that nobody will bother
  - eru 2y ago
    Why? Just pick an industry standard tape. There's still a big market for them, and will be for approximately forever.
clan 2y ago
They did. And if you have a newer drive it is already supported on your DVD or Blu-Ray. Can be read by all drives but requires a recent firmware to be able to write. An example drive would be Asus BW-16D1X-U. It is supported by the major drive manufacturers but it seem the media is only produced by CNC Magnetics or Mitsubishi Chemical. Sold by brands such as Verbatim or Ritek. It is rated for 100+ years. The variant is called M-Disc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC Discs: https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/m-disc/ https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/m-disc/ https://www.ridata.com/M-DISC/eng/index.asp https://www.ridata.com/M-DISC/eng/index.asp Blu-ray license list: https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseelist.php# https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseeli... The hard part will actually be to get hardware in 100 years which can read this. So it will not be write and forget. But reasonable shelf life should at least be available.

xnorswap 2y ago

Archive tape existed well before and well after optical discs. These days, you can fit up to 18TB on a tape. OK, so some smartass will pop up and say that doesn't even fit a RAM dump from some machines, but for most archiving purposes, tape has been consistently the best option for the past 50 years.

ViktorRay 2y ago

DVD-R’s are actually still super commonplace in the medical field. They’re the perfect way to provide patients their medical images in a cheap physical format that is readable by all electronic medical systems.

Scoundreller 2y ago
I often request Canadian government records through freedom of information, and they keep sending 10mb PDFs on CD-Rs. They’ve improved a bit recently, but was annoying for a while. Also learned that a PS4 (or was it a PS5?) cannot open PDFs :(
paradox460 2y ago
My local place gave me my MRI on a branded thumb drive. After I took it to my Ortho, he said I could use the drive for whatever I wanted
Arrath 2y ago
Unfortunately, drives are not so common these days. I had to go buy an external USB DVD drive to see the images given to me after a scan, just last year.
ozim 2y ago
Great feature of DVD-Rs is that someone across the globe cannot just connect to it and steal medical data.
- beardedwizard 2y ago
  And the doctor across the globe can never access it to save the patients life.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    How about, hear me out for a sec, you email/file-share the data off the disc to the doctor abroad in those cases when you need to. Mind-blowing, right? If it's indeed a life saving situation as you say, a doctor will have to do scans there and not wait to receive possibly outdated imaging data from another country Also, no hospital in my country is just gonna release my private medical records on the spot because a doctor from another country called and told them to. There's some formal paperwork that needs to be signed by the pacient and if you're in a coma then you can't sign it and if it's an emergency you don't have time for that whole process so they'll have to perform the scans there. The case of having to quickly send/receive pacient data to or from doctors abroad is not something most public hospitals in my country are prepped for not will they since it's super niche case and in case of emergency they'll do the scans on the spot.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    How often is that a problem?
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      It could be a problem any time someone travels.
      - adrianN 2y ago
        I have a hard time believing that it’s possible to set up a legal and technical framework where patient data can be safely accessed internationally faster than doing another X-ray or whatever might be currently distributed by CD.
NavinF 2y ago
Kaiser emails you the DICOM medical images along with an app for reading them. Most hospitals offer this so I'd expect medical DVDs to die in another decade. The vast majority of PCs and laptops don't come with optical drives and that's been the case for many years now.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Kaiser emails you the DICOM medical images along with an app for reading them. Most hospitals offer this Not in my country. Due to strong data protection regulations most radiology shops don't Email the x-ray files to you. They either send it directly to your GP via the official government mandated channel, or they hand it to you physically in print or disc but never email due to the chance of not arriving to its destination or worse, going to someone else due to human or technical errors. >The vast majority of PCs and laptops don't come with optical drives and that's been the case for many years now. That's irelevant because they're not made for you to read them at home but for your doctor or other healthcare facilities to read them, and all these businesses have disc drives on premises and will most likely do so for decades
holoduke 2y ago
Which country? I am absolutely sure that here in the Netherlands its never the case. Always by email or printed in rare cases. Less than 1% owns a optical disc nowadays.
- eru 2y ago
  > Less than 1% owns a optical disc nowadays. Sources? That seems way too low. I would expect most people have at least one CD hidden somewhere in an attic or similar. I don't have an optical drive connected to any working PC (nor a music CD player) myself, but I still have some CDs lying around the house. Eg a book about learning guitar that I bought second-hand came with a CD.
  - gnabgib 2y ago
    I imagine they meant drive (not just media). But agreed, do people with game consoles (that splurged for the drive), CD/MiniDisc/SACD/DVD/BluRay/HD DVD/Laser disc players, CD/DVD/BluRay burners, older cars, older PCs/laptops/Mac minis, boom boxes, CDJs.. or multiples thereof not bring the average up? I have a PERL Cookbook with a mint CD sealed in the cover.
    - eru 2y ago
      I suspect the percentage of drive owners is a lot lower. But I don't think it would be as low as 1%? If you restrict to 'drives connected to a multi-purpose device so they can eg display medical images sent on disk' the percentage goes lower (but not sure whether all the way to 1%), because most people wouldn't try to use their game consoles for that.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      I don't know about a percentage of households I know, but I do know of several households with literally zero means to play back any physical media. No DVD or Blu-ray players, cars don't have CD players, no computers with optical drives, no game consoles, only maybe a Switch for a game console. I imagine it's still far from most, but it's definitely starting to be a thing.
internet101010 2y ago
They are not the perfect way to get medical images. A friend called me last week to borrow my external drive because the MRI place gave him a stupid CD he had no drive for. For what these places charge they should be giving out USB drives like candy. They are so cheap that Micro Center sells 64gb at the counter for like $3 or something. CD/DVD is not a valid option.
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  cheap USB drives have bad data retention. they will not be readable 3 years later if left unpowered and without a chance to relocate/rewrite data. DVD-Rs will last 20ish years
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Cheap "Chinesium" USB drives can be wildly unreliable, plus they're not write protectable meaning your data could be overwritten or deleted by a shitty app/antivirus, or just get malware transmitted over it. Optical media has the native feature of being written in immutable sessions so your older data is always preserved instead of overwritten(excluding RW media), and also can be write protected when desired by finalizing the session, plus its long data retention shelf life for archiving purposes compared to cheap flash, all make it a great choice for the uses cases of the medical industry file transfer or personal archival at home.
solardev 2y ago
I hate this about that field. I had to scrounge up an external DVD drive from the garage, convert the images and load them onto a medical imaging app on my phone... so that I could show the doctor, who otherwise had to keep going back and forth to another room in the clinic to talk to the tech. I don't understand why they can't just load it on a website (like MyChart) like any other lab data. The images are big (contains more than pixel data, like xyz layers and gamma) but still compressible. I don't know if it's HIPAA or tradition, but it really bugs me that I have to keep a DVD drive around solely for imaging. It's like the situation with the IRS and faxing :(

NavinF 2y ago

IMO the concept of long-term bulk storage doesn't really make sense: Most of your stuff will be recycled by your grandkids. While you're alive, you can just buy a couple of NAS, stash one at a friend's/parent's place, buy the cheapest $/TB storage, use raidz to automatically correct errors over time, and set it up to email you every time it had to resiver to a hot spare so you can buy another HDD >only a fool would trust them to last Heh, head over to /r/DataHoarder to see more of that. "but this time it's different, my coasters don't use organic dyes!"

lencastre 2y ago
Tell me more about raidz and resiver…
- NavinF 2y ago
  Hm? It automatically replaces the dead drive with a hot spare over a couple of days. You can also do it in a couple of hours with dRAID: https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Basic%20Concepts/dRAID%20Howto.html https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Basic%20Concepts/dRAI... You just need a couple of parity drives per vdev and one hot spare for the whole array
eru 2y ago
> Most of your stuff will be recycled by your grandkids. Could you explain this? Why would they do that?
- NavinF 2y ago
  - Most people are not as interesting as they think they are - It's unlikely that your grandkids would have the same interests as you - If anything in your NAS was relevant to the family, your SO would have kept a copy of it in her icloud instead of using your self-hosted photo viewer over tailscale - Once you're old you almost certainly won't be using modern software and file formats. Accessing your data will be incredibly inconvenient
  - 2y ago

eru 2y ago

> I'm just sad that no one's come up with a really good, user-writeable long-term bulk storage solution. Tape would be pretty good, wouldn't it? Or magneto-optical media.

NavinF 2y ago
That would be one of the worst options. Finding a working tape drive in the future will be inconvenient enough that nobody will bother
- eru 2y ago
  Why? Just pick an industry standard tape. There's still a big market for them, and will be for approximately forever.

clan 2y ago

They did. And if you have a newer drive it is already supported on your DVD or Blu-Ray. Can be read by all drives but requires a recent firmware to be able to write. An example drive would be Asus BW-16D1X-U. It is supported by the major drive manufacturers but it seem the media is only produced by CNC Magnetics or Mitsubishi Chemical. Sold by brands such as Verbatim or Ritek. It is rated for 100+ years. The variant is called M-Disc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC Discs: https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/m-disc/ https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/m-disc/ https://www.ridata.com/M-DISC/eng/index.asp https://www.ridata.com/M-DISC/eng/index.asp Blu-ray license list: https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseelist.php# https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseeli... The hard part will actually be to get hardware in 100 years which can read this. So it will not be write and forget. But reasonable shelf life should at least be available.