4 ms·

how is causality established? the data seems to support either conclusion: A.) we found the types of brains that are inherently prone to depression/anxiety B.

by Liquix 2y ago

how is causality established? the data seems to support either conclusion: A.) we found the types of brains that are inherently prone to depression/anxiety B.) we found the patterns that depressive/anxious thoughts make on MRIs

jvanderbot 2y ago
Either is sufficient for a diagnosis, I'd imagine, since you're looking at two sides of the same coin.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Both could help for a diagnosis, but the first one also helps with finding treatments, the second one doesn't.
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    Not so! The gold standard treatment includes CBT, which acts on thought patterns. Trying to separate thoughts from the physical brain wiring is futile - there is no disconnected "thought" that is _not_ the wiring of the brain. Changing thoughts does change brain, and changing brain does change thoughts.
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      I'm not sure how that helps. If we identify the precise biological markers that correspond to depressed feelings, does that help us in some way to change them? We already know these people have depressive emotions, it's not like this test would reveal something we didn't know about them. There is clear value in this from the scientific side, but I don't see how it would help with treatment more directly. Conversely, if we find biological signs that are not directly related to currently experiencing depressive thoughts, those could be a promising target for medication/therapy, and could help detect depression earlier or in more borderline cases.
      - jvanderbot 2y ago
        Consider patients that present with general malaise, fatigue, lack of motivation, grumpiness, etc. Without therapy to teach them to interrogate their thoughts to determine if they have negative feedback cycles, how nice would it be to just say "Oh we detect that you are a ruminator, you should do CBT and we'll prop you up with some SSRI in the meantime." The same way we'd just do a Vitamin D or Iron deficiency check.
MBCook 2y ago
I think this is B so far. But even being able to do something objective m (an MRI) and come up with a prediction that is halfway accurate would be a big step forward. Could this lead to A? Maybe, assuming it’s confirmed. Or maybe cause and effect is backwards. Either way, it’s _something_ i’m not sure we’ve had before.

by Liquix 2y ago

jvanderbot 2y ago

Either is sufficient for a diagnosis, I'd imagine, since you're looking at two sides of the same coin.

tsimionescu 2y ago
Both could help for a diagnosis, but the first one also helps with finding treatments, the second one doesn't.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Not so! The gold standard treatment includes CBT, which acts on thought patterns. Trying to separate thoughts from the physical brain wiring is futile - there is no disconnected "thought" that is _not_ the wiring of the brain. Changing thoughts does change brain, and changing brain does change thoughts.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    I'm not sure how that helps. If we identify the precise biological markers that correspond to depressed feelings, does that help us in some way to change them? We already know these people have depressive emotions, it's not like this test would reveal something we didn't know about them. There is clear value in this from the scientific side, but I don't see how it would help with treatment more directly. Conversely, if we find biological signs that are not directly related to currently experiencing depressive thoughts, those could be a promising target for medication/therapy, and could help detect depression earlier or in more borderline cases.
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      Consider patients that present with general malaise, fatigue, lack of motivation, grumpiness, etc. Without therapy to teach them to interrogate their thoughts to determine if they have negative feedback cycles, how nice would it be to just say "Oh we detect that you are a ruminator, you should do CBT and we'll prop you up with some SSRI in the meantime." The same way we'd just do a Vitamin D or Iron deficiency check.

MBCook 2y ago

I think this is B so far. But even being able to do something objective m (an MRI) and come up with a prediction that is halfway accurate would be a big step forward. Could this lead to A? Maybe, assuming it’s confirmed. Or maybe cause and effect is backwards. Either way, it’s _something_ i’m not sure we’ve had before.