5 ms·

Who Owns Alexander the Great? It's a Diplomatic Minefield

15 points by Thevet 2y ago

drexlspivey 2y ago
Slavs moved into Southern Balkans/Macedonia approximately 900 years after Alexander the Great. The claim that there is any connection between him and the current inhabitants of the region is laughable.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  On the other hand, its hard to imagine there wouldn’t have been quite a bit of admixture.
  - o11c 2y ago
    How much admixture would there be? All the major Macedonian cities are part of modern Greece. Even the application of the name to North Macedonia is more a Roman thing than anything else. We don't call all of Greece (not to mention all the other lands conquered by Alexander) "Macedonia" just because it was conquered by Macedon back then ...
    - quotz 2y ago
      Not that true. There were significant populations of slavic macedonians living in what is now modern greece back when it was all ottoman empire. Post ww2 there was a yugoslav - greek war disguised as a civil war, which led to ethnic greeks killing and kicking out the majority of macedonian slavs that didnt want to convert to being greeks (change their name, and stop speaking macedonian at home). I personally know plenty people whos grandparents were refugees from that “civil war” and had to flee to yugoslavia, because their land and houses were stolen. Actually if you go now to Florina and Kozani because times have changed you will find plenty of people starting to come out of the closet and speak macedonian yet again and start openly practicing their culture, despite enduring forced assimilation years ago. Even despite the changing of the majority of town names, theres still slavic sounding names in the thessaly and epirus region. The current people living in modern turkey that were greek back centuries ago and had to assimilate due to various reasons from greeks to turks, would current greeks nor accept them as part of their culture and greek identity now? Would you say that current turks and greeks share some identity despite the annihilation of the byzantinians? Would the aromanians of modern greece not be accepted as being part of the greek identity? Would the bulgarians not identify with their mongol steppe nomad overlords that came over in early medieval age and started a khanate over the local slav populations? Would the modern hungarians claim that they are in fact mongol asians? These are complicated topics, and politics are just making it worse. There is no definite answer, because the truth lies in who has more power to enforce it. Both greeks and macedonians drown their daily life struggles and sorrows by beating the nationalism drum, so that the corrupt politicians can scream stupid lies on the microphones so they can continue with their corruption, and the common people eat it up like porridge. History is much more complicated.
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      I’m implying that southern slavs having distant ancient macedonian ancestors seems pretty likely to me. People don’t just disappear and make way for an incoming group of people, these slavic migrants 900 years after alexander the great lived probably interbred and assimilated cultures to an extent with whoever was in the balkan peninsula at the time.
- lolinder 2y ago
  This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting. Our connection to the land is no less real than our connection to our ancestors from 2000+ years ago—both are largely social constructs, made up of stories that we tell with our modern friends and family. I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered) and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting No, it's more like denying WASP Americans the native american heritage. Even ignoring the clouded history between the two groups, the former simply came later and have nothing to do with it. >I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered). The claims of legacy is not about having Alexander's family DNA - it's about historical tracing and culture and so on. In any case, even DNA wise, ancient to modern Greeks are quite close according to related studies (and unlike some western racist prejudices in the past centuries, dismissing modern Greeks right to their ancestry). >and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander Says who? Greeks have been speaking and developing the Greek culture and language since before the times of Alexander. And Greek vocabulary as developed at the time of Alexander's expansion, is still easily understood by modern Greeks. Things did change, as they do everywhere - a culture changed after 2.3 millenia of development, is not the same as it being something alien that came from nowhere. Does 16th or even 19th century US culture look like the modern one, if seen superficially? Not. However if traced back, and seen as a series of historical developments, it's a specific stream, discreet than say Mexican or Canadian culture or whatever. And that's just a few centuries. And of course, there being a big difference to 2024 US culture to 1780 US culture doesn't mean current Americans don't have a claim to the Founding Fathers, or Poe, or Mark Twain or whatever - or that suddenly Canadians can lay claim to those things.
AnotherGoodName 2y ago
From an outside perspective the extreme nationalism over "what is Macedonia" just gets weird. As in riots over a name change; Riots in Greece: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/20/thousands-of-greeks-protest-over-name-change-for-macedonia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/20/thousands-of-g... Riots on Macendonia: https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-name-change-protest-student-movement/29316496.html https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-name-change-protest-studen... The people protesting weren't alive in the hey day of Alexander The Great and hero worshipping like this in any case is pretty weird. They weren't around when the empire Alexander conquered existed. Yet people will riot if you suggest Alexander was either Greek or Macedonian depending on who hears you say it. His country was a completely different nation to the modern nations in the area. Yet there's some tribalistic instinct that's getting triggered here that leads to people going pretty much insane over this.
- sgc 2y ago
  It is people who feel inferior looking to attach themselves to something they perceive as great. It is very difficult for many people to find meaning in their lives, so they fall into the excessive fandom / tribalistic / nationalistic / etc mentality when they do not manage to find meaning and satisfaction elsewhere. I don't find it weird, but it is a testament to many things about human nature, and the successes and failures of society and civilization. Some of those things are positive, many are negative.
  - mrangle 2y ago
    I predict that the "belittle them until morale improves" tactic won't ever work. In fact, belittling them seems like the small man tactic in comparison with a simple affinity for tribal history (real or otherwise).
    - AnotherGoodName 2y ago
      I think we can belittle rioting. If it's directed into other outlets (sports is a great outlet) that's fine but violence is worthy of belittling imho.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
more_corn 2y ago
Obviously it’s the strongest.

15 points by Thevet 2y ago

Slavs moved into Southern Balkans/Macedonia approximately 900 years after Alexander the Great. The claim that there is any connection between him and the current inhabitants of the region is laughable.

kjkjadksj 2y ago
On the other hand, its hard to imagine there wouldn’t have been quite a bit of admixture.
- o11c 2y ago
  How much admixture would there be? All the major Macedonian cities are part of modern Greece. Even the application of the name to North Macedonia is more a Roman thing than anything else. We don't call all of Greece (not to mention all the other lands conquered by Alexander) "Macedonia" just because it was conquered by Macedon back then ...
  - quotz 2y ago
    Not that true. There were significant populations of slavic macedonians living in what is now modern greece back when it was all ottoman empire. Post ww2 there was a yugoslav - greek war disguised as a civil war, which led to ethnic greeks killing and kicking out the majority of macedonian slavs that didnt want to convert to being greeks (change their name, and stop speaking macedonian at home). I personally know plenty people whos grandparents were refugees from that “civil war” and had to flee to yugoslavia, because their land and houses were stolen. Actually if you go now to Florina and Kozani because times have changed you will find plenty of people starting to come out of the closet and speak macedonian yet again and start openly practicing their culture, despite enduring forced assimilation years ago. Even despite the changing of the majority of town names, theres still slavic sounding names in the thessaly and epirus region. The current people living in modern turkey that were greek back centuries ago and had to assimilate due to various reasons from greeks to turks, would current greeks nor accept them as part of their culture and greek identity now? Would you say that current turks and greeks share some identity despite the annihilation of the byzantinians? Would the aromanians of modern greece not be accepted as being part of the greek identity? Would the bulgarians not identify with their mongol steppe nomad overlords that came over in early medieval age and started a khanate over the local slav populations? Would the modern hungarians claim that they are in fact mongol asians? These are complicated topics, and politics are just making it worse. There is no definite answer, because the truth lies in who has more power to enforce it. Both greeks and macedonians drown their daily life struggles and sorrows by beating the nationalism drum, so that the corrupt politicians can scream stupid lies on the microphones so they can continue with their corruption, and the common people eat it up like porridge. History is much more complicated.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    I’m implying that southern slavs having distant ancient macedonian ancestors seems pretty likely to me. People don’t just disappear and make way for an incoming group of people, these slavic migrants 900 years after alexander the great lived probably interbred and assimilated cultures to an extent with whoever was in the balkan peninsula at the time.
lolinder 2y ago
This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting. Our connection to the land is no less real than our connection to our ancestors from 2000+ years ago—both are largely social constructs, made up of stories that we tell with our modern friends and family. I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered) and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting No, it's more like denying WASP Americans the native american heritage. Even ignoring the clouded history between the two groups, the former simply came later and have nothing to do with it. >I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered). The claims of legacy is not about having Alexander's family DNA - it's about historical tracing and culture and so on. In any case, even DNA wise, ancient to modern Greeks are quite close according to related studies (and unlike some western racist prejudices in the past centuries, dismissing modern Greeks right to their ancestry). >and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander Says who? Greeks have been speaking and developing the Greek culture and language since before the times of Alexander. And Greek vocabulary as developed at the time of Alexander's expansion, is still easily understood by modern Greeks. Things did change, as they do everywhere - a culture changed after 2.3 millenia of development, is not the same as it being something alien that came from nowhere. Does 16th or even 19th century US culture look like the modern one, if seen superficially? Not. However if traced back, and seen as a series of historical developments, it's a specific stream, discreet than say Mexican or Canadian culture or whatever. And that's just a few centuries. And of course, there being a big difference to 2024 US culture to 1780 US culture doesn't mean current Americans don't have a claim to the Founding Fathers, or Poe, or Mark Twain or whatever - or that suddenly Canadians can lay claim to those things.

AnotherGoodName 2y ago

From an outside perspective the extreme nationalism over "what is Macedonia" just gets weird. As in riots over a name change; Riots in Greece: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/20/thousands-of-greeks-protest-over-name-change-for-macedonia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/20/thousands-of-g... Riots on Macendonia: https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-name-change-protest-student-movement/29316496.html https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-name-change-protest-studen... The people protesting weren't alive in the hey day of Alexander The Great and hero worshipping like this in any case is pretty weird. They weren't around when the empire Alexander conquered existed. Yet people will riot if you suggest Alexander was either Greek or Macedonian depending on who hears you say it. His country was a completely different nation to the modern nations in the area. Yet there's some tribalistic instinct that's getting triggered here that leads to people going pretty much insane over this.

sgc 2y ago
It is people who feel inferior looking to attach themselves to something they perceive as great. It is very difficult for many people to find meaning in their lives, so they fall into the excessive fandom / tribalistic / nationalistic / etc mentality when they do not manage to find meaning and satisfaction elsewhere. I don't find it weird, but it is a testament to many things about human nature, and the successes and failures of society and civilization. Some of those things are positive, many are negative.
- mrangle 2y ago
  I predict that the "belittle them until morale improves" tactic won't ever work. In fact, belittling them seems like the small man tactic in comparison with a simple affinity for tribal history (real or otherwise).
  - AnotherGoodName 2y ago
    I think we can belittle rioting. If it's directed into other outlets (sports is a great outlet) that's fine but violence is worthy of belittling imho.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

more_corn 2y ago

Obviously it’s the strongest.