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Why isn’t he in prison? I mean, going by the West’s own laws, or the spirit of them, anyway. Unless he is part of said West’s Armed Forces, in which case this w

Why isn’t he in prison? I mean, going by the West’s own laws, or the spirit of them, anyway. Unless he is part of said West’s Armed Forces, in which case this would get really close to a casus belli.

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
Because the "rules based order" means a diferent set of rules for different situations. If it's something "we like", then it's ok, if not, then prison. Same for geopolitics... in one case, we care about teritorial integrity, that minorities should not seced, and in others we help with the breakup of countries... well.. or in some cases, we act is if nothing is happening at all, and noone wants to break away at all :)
- pacija 2y ago
  Ајсе Cрбине реци им како ствари стоје, ја покушавам ал сам увек флегд :)
derelicta 2y ago
No no no, ofc its morally justified to do such thing against impoverished nations! After all, if they are subjected to famine-inducing embargoes, they probably deserve it!
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Self imposed poverty due to the authoritarianism. They’re the bad guys, we care less if bad things happen to them.
  - atlantic 2y ago
    [flagged]
Keirmot 2y ago
Because one of the 3 basic principles of sovereignty (as is understood by western political philosophy, known as Westphalian sovereignty) is that there is no other authority inside a State’s borders except its own. This means no other country has jurisdiction in North Korea, besides, there’s also no incentive to help in case DPRK asks for help. France doesn’t investigante crimes that happen in Spain, Portugal doesn’t investigate crimes that haven in Canada, the USA doesn’t investigate crimes that happen in Germany, etc…
- sitkack 2y ago
  The FBI has offices around the world.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > western political philosophy, known as Westphalian sovereignty) is that there is no other authority inside a State’s borders except its own You’re citing centuries-old political philosophy, only remnants of which remain in our world [1]. The West that arose after WWII and through the Cold War is decidedly non-Westphalian. Concepts like human rights, non-proliferation and self determination are non-Westphalian. The Nuremberg trials were anti-Westphalian. The closest modern analogues to (and proponents of) Westphalian philosophy are Russia, China and North Korea. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
  - OKRainbowKid 2y ago
    These "proponents" seem less strict about applying this philosophy to states other than their own.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      The Westphalian treaties gave France, Sweden and later Russia the explicit right to intercede to guarantee the Imperial constitution [1]. (Westphalia was concerned with the Holy Roman Empire.) Westphalian sovereignty as a historical concern is a myth [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarantor_of_the_imperial_constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarantor_of_the_imperial_co... [2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/article/abs/sovereignty-international-relations-and-the-westphalian-myth/33B6B7773432BE494F31518952ABE881 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organi...
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Why isn’t he in prison? Not an enforcement priority for the same reason a lot of domestic abuse goes unprotected: the victim is uncoöperative. > going by the West’s own laws, or the spirit of them, anyway Pyongyang and prosecutors would have to show he attacked a “protected computer” under the CFAA [1]. Given the two routers he allegedly overwhelmed were internet connected, that shouldn’t technically be hard under Trotter and Kane. But it would be a novel expansion of interstate commerce to encompass a country with whom Americans cannot legally trade, i.e. do commerce. Put another way, North Korea’s status as a sanctioned country might put this into a legal grey area—it might not be criminally punishable. To settle that question would take a lot of prosecutorial resources. It’s not clear those are well spent on a case where the witness won’t coöperate. [1] https://www.coreyvarma.com/2015/01/what-is-the-computer-fraud-and-abuse-act-cfaa/#protected_computer https://www.coreyvarma.com/2015/01/what-is-the-computer-frau...
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Privateering is back, baby!
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Privateering is back Good point: a final hurdle inhibiting criminality is his lack of profits. No disgorgeable gains. That means you’re only left with damages, which again, requires the victim’s coöperation to assess.
  - Sabinus 2y ago
    It's already back, Russian, Chinese and North Korean hacking groups receive state funding and cover.
- teekert 2y ago
  I can imagine he did piss of some agencies? I mean other states could have mapped NK's whole infra, made a plan to take down NK's internet when "needed" (i.e. in case of some event)... Then some dude triggers it just for fun... Some things are too big to just mess around with, I would feel extremely vulnerable having pulled such a stunt.
jauer 2y ago
"the West" has to keep some degree of not officially caring to avoid being backed into a policy corner and has no incentive to take law enforcement action when threat actors in those other countries operate with impunity. We're already well into causus belli territory with NK, but nobody wants to go there: https://x.com/tarah/status/1798036415932187127 https://x.com/tarah/status/1798036415932187127
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  That link doesn't really explain what exactly it's talking about, it's a single reply with the original post invisible and all replies invisible. It speaks of a cyberattack without mentioning which one.
  - jauer 2y ago
    It works for me? That's normal behavior if you aren't signed into Twitter :( Summary of thread: Society doesn't handle 2nd order consequences well. NK cryptolocker attack on healthcare-involved systems in British hospitals disrupted treatment to the extent that hundreds of people died who probably wouldn't have. Expanding on that: Organized crime groups located in and sometimes tasked by RU SVR & GRU (not to mention NK state groups) have caused sufficient disruption to US healthcare systems to have indirectly caused more US Citizen deaths than the Sept 11 attacks. Right now cyber that does not directly cause destruction such as making buildings blow up or poisoning water supply is treated as just an annoying white collar crime. I don't think anyone wants the US Government to be in a position where their options are to admit powerlessness or get proportional against nuclear armed states. Somewhat related: https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2023/10/04/8-rules-civilian-hackers-war-4-obligations-states-restrain-them/ https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2023/10/04/8-rules-civ...
Rebelgecko 2y ago
Has NK asked to extradite him? Maybe a swap for the sony hackers?
DocTomoe 2y ago
Don't worry, the North Koreans, if sufficiently pissed, will take care of him.
csomar 2y ago
> Why isn’t he in prison? He very much could, if politics changed. The US hates NK not because they are authoritarian but because they are not aligned. If they were to be aligned, and this guy didn't act on proper authorization, he could find himself in hot waters in the USA. Plus he might have broken a bunch of "international" rules which could see him in trouble if he was to travel to some countries. It is really reckless; but then there is a good chance he was acting behind some agency.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > there is a good chance he was acting behind some agency Almost certainly not. The vector would have been saved. And he wouldn’t have maintained this public profile ex post facto. Consider, for example, taking it down during today’s state visit? (After you’ve quadruple checked that the Russians have independent connectivity.)
EasyMark 2y ago
It would take someone that wanted to prosecute him. If his story is real he deserves a medal and possibly a job at the NSA/CIA instead of a court date.

ajsnigrutin 2y ago

Because the "rules based order" means a diferent set of rules for different situations. If it's something "we like", then it's ok, if not, then prison. Same for geopolitics... in one case, we care about teritorial integrity, that minorities should not seced, and in others we help with the breakup of countries... well.. or in some cases, we act is if nothing is happening at all, and noone wants to break away at all :)

pacija 2y ago
Ајсе Cрбине реци им како ствари стоје, ја покушавам ал сам увек флегд :)

derelicta 2y ago

No no no, ofc its morally justified to do such thing against impoverished nations! After all, if they are subjected to famine-inducing embargoes, they probably deserve it!

dyauspitr 2y ago
Self imposed poverty due to the authoritarianism. They’re the bad guys, we care less if bad things happen to them.
- atlantic 2y ago
  [flagged]

Keirmot 2y ago

Because one of the 3 basic principles of sovereignty (as is understood by western political philosophy, known as Westphalian sovereignty) is that there is no other authority inside a State’s borders except its own. This means no other country has jurisdiction in North Korea, besides, there’s also no incentive to help in case DPRK asks for help. France doesn’t investigante crimes that happen in Spain, Portugal doesn’t investigate crimes that haven in Canada, the USA doesn’t investigate crimes that happen in Germany, etc…

sitkack 2y ago
The FBI has offices around the world.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> western political philosophy, known as Westphalian sovereignty) is that there is no other authority inside a State’s borders except its own You’re citing centuries-old political philosophy, only remnants of which remain in our world [1]. The West that arose after WWII and through the Cold War is decidedly non-Westphalian. Concepts like human rights, non-proliferation and self determination are non-Westphalian. The Nuremberg trials were anti-Westphalian. The closest modern analogues to (and proponents of) Westphalian philosophy are Russia, China and North Korea. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
- OKRainbowKid 2y ago
  These "proponents" seem less strict about applying this philosophy to states other than their own.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    The Westphalian treaties gave France, Sweden and later Russia the explicit right to intercede to guarantee the Imperial constitution [1]. (Westphalia was concerned with the Holy Roman Empire.) Westphalian sovereignty as a historical concern is a myth [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarantor_of_the_imperial_constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarantor_of_the_imperial_co... [2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/article/abs/sovereignty-international-relations-and-the-westphalian-myth/33B6B7773432BE494F31518952ABE881 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organi...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Why isn’t he in prison? Not an enforcement priority for the same reason a lot of domestic abuse goes unprotected: the victim is uncoöperative. > going by the West’s own laws, or the spirit of them, anyway Pyongyang and prosecutors would have to show he attacked a “protected computer” under the CFAA [1]. Given the two routers he allegedly overwhelmed were internet connected, that shouldn’t technically be hard under Trotter and Kane. But it would be a novel expansion of interstate commerce to encompass a country with whom Americans cannot legally trade, i.e. do commerce. Put another way, North Korea’s status as a sanctioned country might put this into a legal grey area—it might not be criminally punishable. To settle that question would take a lot of prosecutorial resources. It’s not clear those are well spent on a case where the witness won’t coöperate. [1] https://www.coreyvarma.com/2015/01/what-is-the-computer-fraud-and-abuse-act-cfaa/#protected_computer https://www.coreyvarma.com/2015/01/what-is-the-computer-frau...

saagarjha 2y ago
Privateering is back, baby!
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Privateering is back Good point: a final hurdle inhibiting criminality is his lack of profits. No disgorgeable gains. That means you’re only left with damages, which again, requires the victim’s coöperation to assess.
- Sabinus 2y ago
  It's already back, Russian, Chinese and North Korean hacking groups receive state funding and cover.
teekert 2y ago
I can imagine he did piss of some agencies? I mean other states could have mapped NK's whole infra, made a plan to take down NK's internet when "needed" (i.e. in case of some event)... Then some dude triggers it just for fun... Some things are too big to just mess around with, I would feel extremely vulnerable having pulled such a stunt.

jauer 2y ago

"the West" has to keep some degree of not officially caring to avoid being backed into a policy corner and has no incentive to take law enforcement action when threat actors in those other countries operate with impunity. We're already well into causus belli territory with NK, but nobody wants to go there: https://x.com/tarah/status/1798036415932187127 https://x.com/tarah/status/1798036415932187127

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
That link doesn't really explain what exactly it's talking about, it's a single reply with the original post invisible and all replies invisible. It speaks of a cyberattack without mentioning which one.
- jauer 2y ago
  It works for me? That's normal behavior if you aren't signed into Twitter :( Summary of thread: Society doesn't handle 2nd order consequences well. NK cryptolocker attack on healthcare-involved systems in British hospitals disrupted treatment to the extent that hundreds of people died who probably wouldn't have. Expanding on that: Organized crime groups located in and sometimes tasked by RU SVR & GRU (not to mention NK state groups) have caused sufficient disruption to US healthcare systems to have indirectly caused more US Citizen deaths than the Sept 11 attacks. Right now cyber that does not directly cause destruction such as making buildings blow up or poisoning water supply is treated as just an annoying white collar crime. I don't think anyone wants the US Government to be in a position where their options are to admit powerlessness or get proportional against nuclear armed states. Somewhat related: https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2023/10/04/8-rules-civilian-hackers-war-4-obligations-states-restrain-them/ https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2023/10/04/8-rules-civ...

Rebelgecko 2y ago

Has NK asked to extradite him? Maybe a swap for the sony hackers?

DocTomoe 2y ago

Don't worry, the North Koreans, if sufficiently pissed, will take care of him.

csomar 2y ago

> Why isn’t he in prison? He very much could, if politics changed. The US hates NK not because they are authoritarian but because they are not aligned. If they were to be aligned, and this guy didn't act on proper authorization, he could find himself in hot waters in the USA. Plus he might have broken a bunch of "international" rules which could see him in trouble if he was to travel to some countries. It is really reckless; but then there is a good chance he was acting behind some agency.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> there is a good chance he was acting behind some agency Almost certainly not. The vector would have been saved. And he wouldn’t have maintained this public profile ex post facto. Consider, for example, taking it down during today’s state visit? (After you’ve quadruple checked that the Russians have independent connectivity.)

EasyMark 2y ago

It would take someone that wanted to prosecute him. If his story is real he deserves a medal and possibly a job at the NSA/CIA instead of a court date.