7 ms·

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely just spazms.... Like any normal dog.

lukan 2y ago
How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?
- 4ggr0 2y ago
  I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings. As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.
  - sim7c00 2y ago
    I never really thought about it that way. killing loads of conscious beings. Until for Eid in Morocco I got the honour of helping to kill a sheep so the family could eat it. (100+ people tribe) I am still not a vegetarian, but do have a much more realistic view on what's really on our plates now. - I don't think eating meat is bad though. I _do_ eat a lot less meat now. (smaller portions and less frequent). Predators eat prey, but they don't mass produce their prey. For some random context: the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep, lived a blessed life loved by the community, to be eaten at an old age at Eid someday. Everyday the women in the village and maybe their kids will take the sheep to graze etc. and give them love like any farmer loves his animals. He was only scared moments before the deed was done as then they are moved to a little separate pen and likely realize it's the end for them. The families usually own only a few sheep, different ages. Occasionally when one ages out it's slaughtered. - Cows and other larger animals such as Camels are for extremely special occasions and actually rarely eaten. (once a year, or at a marriage or something special like that.) I wish it was feasible in my country for example to do similar things, which are much more friendly to the animals involved, but it's litteraly ILLEGAL. funny how that works...
    - 4ggr0 2y ago
      > I don't think eating meat is bad though Yeah I guess just the moment of eating it is not the bad aspect, but what comes before this moment. forcefully impregnating animals, taking their kids away from them, letting them live in concrete buildings without much access to fresh air or grass, transporting them in inhumane conditions etc. > the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep i frequently wonder if it would be possible to switch to a model where animals at least get to live a full life, before being slaughtered at an old age. probably not profitable at all... to be fair, as romantic as your moroccan story sounds, i'm not a fan at all of the practice of just slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed out. Sounds like a very traumatic, painful experience if you're a conscious being. and the more i think about it, i'm not sure if giving an animal a good life is enough of an excuse to then slaughter it. don't get me wrong, i do eat meat (would love to stop), but for me there's no valid, ethical argument towards meat consumption. if people want to eat meat, then they should, as long as they're honest about what exactly it is they're doing.
      - throwaway2037 2y ago
        > i do eat meat (would love to stop) I want to be encouraging here. Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment. I'm down about 95-99% from childhood. I was a strict vegan for a while, but it was just too difficult socially. I realised that reducing my harm and environmental footprint by 95+% was enough. I don't worry too much about the rest. Please don't read this response that you need to reduce by 95%! Even reducing 50% is a huge win. Or you could try to switch to more ethical meat sources -- raised on nice farms with plenty of space. Again: This has a real impact.
        4ggr0 2y ago
        > Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment yeah, agree 100%! Almost a year ago i was living vegetarian, but then a couple of months ago some minor depressive moods were enough to destroy my willpower to resist meat. i love the taste and texture of meat, incl. liver, sheep, kidney etc., so the reason for me to be vegetarian are purely ethical reasons. but i will try to reduce my consumption again, i know that i can do it :)
  - yoyohello13 2y ago
    I can't remember the exact book I was reading. I think "Old Man's War" or one of the sequels. But an advanced alien race captured some humans and was basically raising them like cattle. Inseminating women, harvesting milk, slaughtering for meat. It really affected my perception of how fucked up the whole process actually is.
    - 4ggr0 2y ago
      Very interesting that you're mentioning this. I had this exact plot as a thought once. "maybe a shocking horror movie about aliens treating humans like cattle could show people why vegans/vegetarians think it's fucked up what we're doing. aliens forcefully impregnating young women/girls, taking their babies away from them after they've been born, genetically raising them so that they produce as much milk and muscle-mass as possible and then just kill them for consumption. if they're as dumb as us they'll even waste more energy doing all of this than they get from our meat." doesn't surprise me that this plot already exists, as it's not that creative. i must've been inspired by this, somehow, without being aware of it :D
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      Does anyone remember how they felt when the original Matrix film showed the scene of humans being farmed? It still stays with me today. The wave of cold sweat that came over me.
- nullstyle 2y ago
  The boss/worker relationship within our current mode of production seems to be another way we justify treating others like raw resources. Especially in lean financial times.
  - sim7c00 2y ago
    you are not wrong to draw this paralell. If humans can't treat eachother well, how little chance do animals have?
- tdb7893 2y ago
  There are a lot of things that I was taught growing up that I used to sort of just accept but from the outside don't really make any sense (as an example: where I grew up was pretty homophobic but once I was old enough I realized that the homophobia just literally made no sense and it was stupid to care what other people did). The current state of animal agriculture is one of those thing, growing up I ate meat and I had all these justifications but once I stopped I realized it was all bullshit and the treatment of animals just wasn't okay. It's pretty crazy the way we'll just accept things that are "normal" even if they are absolutely horrifying. The saddest thing to me is the people that say they "love animals" but eat them pretty uncritically (though obviously I used to be one of these people).
  - psychoslave 2y ago
    > it was stupid to care what other people did Just put like this, it’s a bit of an opposite extreme. I mean, the rest of your message also give context that mitigate the statement, but alone it sounds a bit drastic: if some people plot a genocide against some other people, the latter would be wiser to care about it.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Yes indeed. A person who does not care about others at all, is called a sociopath. But what to do, if the society itself is sick? Well, either find a balance of blocking out the bad parts and accepting only the good, or find a better society ... (To become a immigrant somewhere else)
- wruza 2y ago
  I'm sure that consciousness is a spectrum and that big mammals are near us on it, if there's any difference at all except for intelligence levels. At the same time I have no issues with animal resource factories. I justify their existence by the fact that I'm a carnivore and needed meat and fats to properly operate since forever, no need for complex philosophy here. The necessity to justify that against ethics usually means you got way deeper into it than is reasonable.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Are you sure, you need meet? Personally, I know I want meat and I know I despise the meat factories. But there are alternatives, cattle raised on actual grass. Or game from the forest. More expensive, but I don't need nor want meat every day. edit: with meat factories I did not talk about industrial packaging of meat. That is fine. What is not fine with me, is having living animals on conveyor belts, who never see the sun or feel the earth.
  - delecti 2y ago
    If you're human, you aren't an obligate carnivore, because humans can live healthily on a fully vegan diet. Animal products (meat, dairy, eggs) certainly gave pre-industrial humans a big boost as a dense and (at times) readily available source of calories and protein, but that's a far cry from "needing" it. Modern usage of animal products for food is purely for convenience and pleasure. A point could be made that that's sufficent, but it's objectively not necessary.
    - wruza 2y ago
      I don't feel good without meat, and good substitutes are less available. But my main point (which I started to write above but seemingly decided to omit, to my own confusion) is that this fear-cold-hunger-devour-alive-die-young bs is how wild nature works every day for eons. I am its creature and should see no guilt except for true sadism. I agree with regulating bad farms away, but suffering through reduction of my already small demand to zero barely helps anything.
      - 2y ago
abainbridge 2y ago
Not only that, but my dog has enough theory of mind to ignore a toy/food resource until another dog turns up, at which point she will grab it and parade in front of the other dog to show they can't have it. She knows she can demonstrate dominance by holding the resource that she thinks the other dog wants, even though she doesn't want it herself.
- sim7c00 2y ago
  Haha love it. we had one which would just shake her head at certain foods. 'nope, not gonna eat it' and just sit nexto the bowl sad :D (we really really tried.. but had to shift foods :D)

lukan 2y ago

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

4ggr0 2y ago
I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings. As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.
- sim7c00 2y ago
  I never really thought about it that way. killing loads of conscious beings. Until for Eid in Morocco I got the honour of helping to kill a sheep so the family could eat it. (100+ people tribe) I am still not a vegetarian, but do have a much more realistic view on what's really on our plates now. - I don't think eating meat is bad though. I _do_ eat a lot less meat now. (smaller portions and less frequent). Predators eat prey, but they don't mass produce their prey. For some random context: the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep, lived a blessed life loved by the community, to be eaten at an old age at Eid someday. Everyday the women in the village and maybe their kids will take the sheep to graze etc. and give them love like any farmer loves his animals. He was only scared moments before the deed was done as then they are moved to a little separate pen and likely realize it's the end for them. The families usually own only a few sheep, different ages. Occasionally when one ages out it's slaughtered. - Cows and other larger animals such as Camels are for extremely special occasions and actually rarely eaten. (once a year, or at a marriage or something special like that.) I wish it was feasible in my country for example to do similar things, which are much more friendly to the animals involved, but it's litteraly ILLEGAL. funny how that works...
  - 4ggr0 2y ago
    > I don't think eating meat is bad though Yeah I guess just the moment of eating it is not the bad aspect, but what comes before this moment. forcefully impregnating animals, taking their kids away from them, letting them live in concrete buildings without much access to fresh air or grass, transporting them in inhumane conditions etc. > the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep i frequently wonder if it would be possible to switch to a model where animals at least get to live a full life, before being slaughtered at an old age. probably not profitable at all... to be fair, as romantic as your moroccan story sounds, i'm not a fan at all of the practice of just slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed out. Sounds like a very traumatic, painful experience if you're a conscious being. and the more i think about it, i'm not sure if giving an animal a good life is enough of an excuse to then slaughter it. don't get me wrong, i do eat meat (would love to stop), but for me there's no valid, ethical argument towards meat consumption. if people want to eat meat, then they should, as long as they're honest about what exactly it is they're doing.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      > i do eat meat (would love to stop) I want to be encouraging here. Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment. I'm down about 95-99% from childhood. I was a strict vegan for a while, but it was just too difficult socially. I realised that reducing my harm and environmental footprint by 95+% was enough. I don't worry too much about the rest. Please don't read this response that you need to reduce by 95%! Even reducing 50% is a huge win. Or you could try to switch to more ethical meat sources -- raised on nice farms with plenty of space. Again: This has a real impact.
      - 4ggr0 2y ago
        > Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment yeah, agree 100%! Almost a year ago i was living vegetarian, but then a couple of months ago some minor depressive moods were enough to destroy my willpower to resist meat. i love the taste and texture of meat, incl. liver, sheep, kidney etc., so the reason for me to be vegetarian are purely ethical reasons. but i will try to reduce my consumption again, i know that i can do it :)
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  I can't remember the exact book I was reading. I think "Old Man's War" or one of the sequels. But an advanced alien race captured some humans and was basically raising them like cattle. Inseminating women, harvesting milk, slaughtering for meat. It really affected my perception of how fucked up the whole process actually is.
  - 4ggr0 2y ago
    Very interesting that you're mentioning this. I had this exact plot as a thought once. "maybe a shocking horror movie about aliens treating humans like cattle could show people why vegans/vegetarians think it's fucked up what we're doing. aliens forcefully impregnating young women/girls, taking their babies away from them after they've been born, genetically raising them so that they produce as much milk and muscle-mass as possible and then just kill them for consumption. if they're as dumb as us they'll even waste more energy doing all of this than they get from our meat." doesn't surprise me that this plot already exists, as it's not that creative. i must've been inspired by this, somehow, without being aware of it :D
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    Does anyone remember how they felt when the original Matrix film showed the scene of humans being farmed? It still stays with me today. The wave of cold sweat that came over me.
nullstyle 2y ago
The boss/worker relationship within our current mode of production seems to be another way we justify treating others like raw resources. Especially in lean financial times.
- sim7c00 2y ago
  you are not wrong to draw this paralell. If humans can't treat eachother well, how little chance do animals have?
tdb7893 2y ago
There are a lot of things that I was taught growing up that I used to sort of just accept but from the outside don't really make any sense (as an example: where I grew up was pretty homophobic but once I was old enough I realized that the homophobia just literally made no sense and it was stupid to care what other people did). The current state of animal agriculture is one of those thing, growing up I ate meat and I had all these justifications but once I stopped I realized it was all bullshit and the treatment of animals just wasn't okay. It's pretty crazy the way we'll just accept things that are "normal" even if they are absolutely horrifying. The saddest thing to me is the people that say they "love animals" but eat them pretty uncritically (though obviously I used to be one of these people).
- psychoslave 2y ago
  > it was stupid to care what other people did Just put like this, it’s a bit of an opposite extreme. I mean, the rest of your message also give context that mitigate the statement, but alone it sounds a bit drastic: if some people plot a genocide against some other people, the latter would be wiser to care about it.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Yes indeed. A person who does not care about others at all, is called a sociopath. But what to do, if the society itself is sick? Well, either find a balance of blocking out the bad parts and accepting only the good, or find a better society ... (To become a immigrant somewhere else)
wruza 2y ago
I'm sure that consciousness is a spectrum and that big mammals are near us on it, if there's any difference at all except for intelligence levels. At the same time I have no issues with animal resource factories. I justify their existence by the fact that I'm a carnivore and needed meat and fats to properly operate since forever, no need for complex philosophy here. The necessity to justify that against ethics usually means you got way deeper into it than is reasonable.
- lukan 2y ago
  Are you sure, you need meet? Personally, I know I want meat and I know I despise the meat factories. But there are alternatives, cattle raised on actual grass. Or game from the forest. More expensive, but I don't need nor want meat every day. edit: with meat factories I did not talk about industrial packaging of meat. That is fine. What is not fine with me, is having living animals on conveyor belts, who never see the sun or feel the earth.
- delecti 2y ago
  If you're human, you aren't an obligate carnivore, because humans can live healthily on a fully vegan diet. Animal products (meat, dairy, eggs) certainly gave pre-industrial humans a big boost as a dense and (at times) readily available source of calories and protein, but that's a far cry from "needing" it. Modern usage of animal products for food is purely for convenience and pleasure. A point could be made that that's sufficent, but it's objectively not necessary.
  - wruza 2y ago
    I don't feel good without meat, and good substitutes are less available. But my main point (which I started to write above but seemingly decided to omit, to my own confusion) is that this fear-cold-hunger-devour-alive-die-young bs is how wild nature works every day for eons. I am its creature and should see no guilt except for true sadism. I agree with regulating bad farms away, but suffering through reduction of my already small demand to zero barely helps anything.
    - 2y ago

abainbridge 2y ago

Not only that, but my dog has enough theory of mind to ignore a toy/food resource until another dog turns up, at which point she will grab it and parade in front of the other dog to show they can't have it. She knows she can demonstrate dominance by holding the resource that she thinks the other dog wants, even though she doesn't want it herself.

sim7c00 2y ago
Haha love it. we had one which would just shake her head at certain foods. 'nope, not gonna eat it' and just sit nexto the bowl sad :D (we really really tried.. but had to shift foods :D)