4 ms·

I don't support this legislation but I also do not live in the EU. Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Wh

I don't support this legislation but I also do not live in the EU. Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Why not castrate the offender after two strikes or even one? I am sure there are other biological reasons for this to happen but I got the impression a lot of abusers were abused as children.

intunderflow 2y ago
Similar reason why there's no death penalty. If you get the wrong person and you lock them up you can release them with compensation, it won't fix it but its better. You can't un-castrate someone the same way you can't revive them after an execution. Courts convict innocent people all the time, hence no irreversible punishments.
- tichiian 2y ago
  Locking someone up is a one-way punishment, they will not get their years back. Branding someone as a child-molester, even if they are later vindicated, is permanent. We already have irreversible punishments.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- infecto 2y ago
  Ok but after two strikes? If you have gotten into trouble twice, I don’t have much concern. Life is not fair sometimes. Happy to see if there are better ways to treat abusers that improve recidivism but I am not convinced prison time works. There is something deeply wrong with people who not only have the desires but are willing to act on them knowing it will hurt their victims.
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    The threat level doesn't make your proposal a necessity and I believe it is founded in the same irrational fears that this policy suggestion plays on.
llm_trw 2y ago
Because the age of consent is 14 in Germany.
- account42 2y ago
  This is not true.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    >The age of consent in Germany is 14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Germ... I always find it funny when Americans find out that Europeans aren't prudes like them.
JKCalhoun 2y ago
> Why not castrate the offender have two strikes or even one? That's orthogonal to whether or not we should implement a means to catch those that transmit child pornography. Is castration intended to "cure" the criminal or do you think it would act as a deterrent? Would you consider castration for any kind of rape? It sounds as though the next obvious step would be to amputate the hand of the serial shoplifter, etc. I'm personally not in favor of giving the state that kind of irreversible authority over our body parts.
dsign 2y ago
I doubt that child pornography is even the true reason behind these laws. If anything, that problem is at its lowest now in the entire human history, at least in Europe. And the form of "violence" these laws are trying to limit have to do with bytes going over the Internet, not directly with children being kidnapped or sold into prostitution. I'm not saying that these laws couldn't be used as tools to go after actual human trafficking networks, but their scope and the damage they do is vastly disproportional to that objective. More likely, the true goal is to introduce novel forms of policing, and widen them bit by bit until we do become true surveillance states, where every word any citizen ever said is stored in some government archive.
amelius 2y ago
Because we don't live in the middle ages and have human right laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity
- infecto 2y ago
  Such a dismissing statement without any meat. Happy if other alternatives are explored but I have not heard of any that significantly improve the recidivism rate.
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    We explored the possibility for these kinds of punishments aplenty. It is fairly established that higher punishments don't necessarily reduce crime or recidivism.
sturmdev 2y ago
When discussing extreme punishments like this, you must consider false convictions. Only in a perfect justice system (which is not achievable) could we allow such punishments. FWIW, I also feel this way about the death penalty. When proposing “permanent” punishments like this, always put yourself in the shoes of someone who is falsely convicted. And consider that false convictions can (and do) happen for a wide variety of reasons: racial bias, political bias, cover ups, government oppression, etc.
- infecto 2y ago
  Right I get it and I too always put myself in those shoes. I think if you have been convicted twice that it’s likely to weed out most of those cases. Generally once you have been convicted once, you are already not allowed around children.
Someone 2y ago
> Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Why not castrate the offender have two strikes or even one? I am sure there are other biological reasons for this to happen but I got the impression a lot of abusers were abused as children. Because castrating people as punishment ‘because’ they were abused as children doesn’t feel right? Of course, doing that as part of treatment could in extreme situations be justified, but luckily there’s ‘reversible castration’ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration), and that (of course) is preferred as treatment, if such harsh measures are required.
EasyMark 2y ago
Is chopping off shoplifter’s hands next? Good grief, let’s not do a new wrong thing to fix an old wrong thing. That biblical stuff needs to stay in the fairy tale book.

intunderflow 2y ago

Similar reason why there's no death penalty. If you get the wrong person and you lock them up you can release them with compensation, it won't fix it but its better. You can't un-castrate someone the same way you can't revive them after an execution. Courts convict innocent people all the time, hence no irreversible punishments.

tichiian 2y ago
Locking someone up is a one-way punishment, they will not get their years back. Branding someone as a child-molester, even if they are later vindicated, is permanent. We already have irreversible punishments.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
infecto 2y ago
Ok but after two strikes? If you have gotten into trouble twice, I don’t have much concern. Life is not fair sometimes. Happy to see if there are better ways to treat abusers that improve recidivism but I am not convinced prison time works. There is something deeply wrong with people who not only have the desires but are willing to act on them knowing it will hurt their victims.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  The threat level doesn't make your proposal a necessity and I believe it is founded in the same irrational fears that this policy suggestion plays on.

llm_trw 2y ago

Because the age of consent is 14 in Germany.

account42 2y ago
This is not true.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  >The age of consent in Germany is 14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Germ... I always find it funny when Americans find out that Europeans aren't prudes like them.

JKCalhoun 2y ago

> Why not castrate the offender have two strikes or even one? That's orthogonal to whether or not we should implement a means to catch those that transmit child pornography. Is castration intended to "cure" the criminal or do you think it would act as a deterrent? Would you consider castration for any kind of rape? It sounds as though the next obvious step would be to amputate the hand of the serial shoplifter, etc. I'm personally not in favor of giving the state that kind of irreversible authority over our body parts.

dsign 2y ago

I doubt that child pornography is even the true reason behind these laws. If anything, that problem is at its lowest now in the entire human history, at least in Europe. And the form of "violence" these laws are trying to limit have to do with bytes going over the Internet, not directly with children being kidnapped or sold into prostitution. I'm not saying that these laws couldn't be used as tools to go after actual human trafficking networks, but their scope and the damage they do is vastly disproportional to that objective. More likely, the true goal is to introduce novel forms of policing, and widen them bit by bit until we do become true surveillance states, where every word any citizen ever said is stored in some government archive.

amelius 2y ago

Because we don't live in the middle ages and have human right laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity

infecto 2y ago
Such a dismissing statement without any meat. Happy if other alternatives are explored but I have not heard of any that significantly improve the recidivism rate.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  We explored the possibility for these kinds of punishments aplenty. It is fairly established that higher punishments don't necessarily reduce crime or recidivism.

sturmdev 2y ago

When discussing extreme punishments like this, you must consider false convictions. Only in a perfect justice system (which is not achievable) could we allow such punishments. FWIW, I also feel this way about the death penalty. When proposing “permanent” punishments like this, always put yourself in the shoes of someone who is falsely convicted. And consider that false convictions can (and do) happen for a wide variety of reasons: racial bias, political bias, cover ups, government oppression, etc.

infecto 2y ago
Right I get it and I too always put myself in those shoes. I think if you have been convicted twice that it’s likely to weed out most of those cases. Generally once you have been convicted once, you are already not allowed around children.

Someone 2y ago

> Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Why not castrate the offender have two strikes or even one? I am sure there are other biological reasons for this to happen but I got the impression a lot of abusers were abused as children. Because castrating people as punishment ‘because’ they were abused as children doesn’t feel right? Of course, doing that as part of treatment could in extreme situations be justified, but luckily there’s ‘reversible castration’ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration), and that (of course) is preferred as treatment, if such harsh measures are required.

EasyMark 2y ago

Is chopping off shoplifter’s hands next? Good grief, let’s not do a new wrong thing to fix an old wrong thing. That biblical stuff needs to stay in the fairy tale book.