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I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likel

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it, thinking them fanciful. One moment that showed me I was misguided was when I took a cookbook out from a low shelf, and replaced it. I didn't put it exactly where I'd retrieved it from. Several hours later, the cat walked by the shelf, stopped, and started examining the cookbooks. I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place. I realized that my cat knew things that I did not. That put a crack of doubt in my facade of cynicism. Eventually I realized that cynicism was hollow and obscured the truth, rather than revealing it.

rogerclark 2y ago
That first sentence is one of the best-distilled insights I've ever read on HN.
- namero999 2y ago
  I concur, was about to express the same sentiment. I will steal this, sorry-not-sorry :)
- throwitaway222 2y ago
  I saw your comment and had to re-read it. Damn insightful yes.
defrost 2y ago
> I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place. Orthogonal to any argument about conciousness in cats, the most probable explanation is your cat was aware of your scent freshly attached to a book that previously didn't carry it. In my experience cats are acutely aware of scents, particularly known and especially unknown scents in new places. Had you been an unknown cat the chances are extremely high your cat would have urinated on your book.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  My thoughts didn't go to scent but to environment change; things moving can signify the presence of another animal, one that is trying to hide itself. Could be an ambush predator.
  - iovrthoughtthis 2y ago
    this could also be the reason humans notice changes
- zeekaran 2y ago
  Any time we move a piece of furniture, especially cat furniture that has been ignored for months, it becomes a new fascinating object. Most non-feral cats don't just go around pissing on everything.
  - devbent 2y ago
    I had a dog growing up who'd try to move furniture back to its original location anytime we rearranged the room.
- User23 2y ago
  This reminds me of Feynman’s famous essay about the rat mazes and how the rats used all kinds of unexpected cues to navigate like the sound of their feet in the floor and the position of the room lights.
  - matt-attack 2y ago
    Funny you should mention that Feynman story. Because probably more apropos is the story he talks about being able to identify which book on a shelf was recently manhandled - SOLELY BY THE SCENT. I kid you not it if you’re not familiar with that one but I distinctly recall that story from one of his books.
- water-your-self 2y ago
  I do not agree that the most probable explanation is scent, given the description provided by the comment you are responding to
coderenegade 2y ago
It's an easy trap to fall into for those who've never spent significant time around animals. After owning a few dogs you realize that they have their own unique experience of the world, and it's probably somewhere along the same continuum that we are. They know family, they go through a rebellious adolescent phase, they throw tantrums, get bored, excited, happy, horny, etc. I'll never know what it's like to experience the world through my nose the way my dog does, and he'll never know what it's like to read a book, but it doesn't mean that we don't love each other dearly. And I don't need to read his mind to know that, because it's plainly obvious in his actions and body language.
exe34 2y ago
the cat probably discovered a new smell (did you take the book to the kitchen? put it on the dinner table? on your lap?).
wruza 2y ago
Since you seem to be one of those who denied(?) consciousness of a cat, how do you conceptualize it? Something like “a cat is just a large finite automaton and I am not”? How do you draw the line? Through “soul”? Through “neocortex thickness”? Why a cat would not experience its life like you do when e.g. drugged or seriously drunk? I mean, cats aren’t drunk, but isn’t it easy to experience or at least imagine the “animal mode” in yourself? At times when you were startled or in rage or had sex like an animal, so that your intellectual parts didn’t work properly, did that pause your consciousness? Have you thought about it and if yes, what’s the answer? Also why is it so surprising to you that a cat noticed a change and… how exactly does this connect to yes/no consciousness? (These are all curiosity questions, I’m not an animal rights fighter or something like that.)
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Ability to reflect non-heuristically on stimuli and not fall back into stress-reflex behaviour like schizophrenia. A animal that things god/the government/everyone is after them like a mice, is less concious then somebody able test that hypothesis and leave that fear filled fever dream. Its a scale though, and in my opinion, with considerable overlap, depending on situation and adaption.
  - wruza 2y ago
    Afaict, you are describing intelligence, not consciousness.
    - jfyi 2y ago
      I agree. I also agree with the article that "consciousness" is an overloaded term. I believe you and I would agree to it as something more akin to "sentience" but that is not the case for everyone. I feel this topic always seems to unknowingly devolve into disagreements on first principals.
      - wruza 2y ago
        Yes, that's common. But in everyone's defense, when I researched it myself, it gets as messy as itt in mainstream pholosophy. You can never be sure what a person really talks about and for five minutes it sounds reasonable, but then you meet a claim that yanks a carrying wall from your comprehension.
fallingknife 2y ago
The most cynical and disenchanted answer (and most likely to be true) is that animals are just as conscious as humans and that we just made all this nonsense up to justify our actions.
ninetyninenine 2y ago
People identifying as rationalists are also often misguided. It’s a common trope among programmers who think they’re smart and think their intelligence leads to them being logical and unbiased. I hate to break it to you but if you think you’re smart most likely you are more biased than normal.
- qup 2y ago
  If a person were actually smart, what would you expect their opinion of their own intelligence to be?
  - RunSet 2y ago
    https://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/WhatIsIntelligenceAnywayByIsaacAsimov https://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/WhatIsIntelligenceA...
kevin42 2y ago
One of our cats was very old (18+) and sick. We made the choice to have her euthanized to end her suffering and the vet came to our house to do it. One of our other (male) cats loved her and always tried to cuddle her. My wife took the old kitty out of the room where they were cuddling, and after it was done she thought she would let him say goodbye. He got very upset at my wife and hissed at her for days. He's normally very sweet with my wife, but he was clearly distraught at losing his friend and seeing her dead. He didn't just think she was sleeping, and he blamed my wife. I've always known our cats have emotions and understand a lot about the world they're in, but after that experience, I have no doubt that they are conscious.
- nkoren 2y ago
  A friend of mine had two kittens -- siblings, who were very close to each other. One of them was hit by a car and killed. I had adored this kitten, so in memory of her I did a chalk drawing portrait of the kitten, and brought it over to my friend as gift, about a week after the kitten had died. The surviving sibling had, during that time, seemed somewhat morose and unresponsive, but also kind of cryptic in the way that cats can be. Hard to read. But when the surviving kitten saw my drawing, he began crying so piteously, reaching out and clawing towards the drawing -- and this went on for most of an hour -- that there was absolutely no mistaking the emotion behind it, and soon everybody else in the room was bawling as well. (Also, I was impressed that he responded to a drawing; it was a decent drawing, but quite abstract relative to (say) a photographic representation. Cats usually seem oblivious to photos in any case, and this is one of the things which confounds animal consciousness research: it's very hard to tell the difference between something that an animal can't do, and something an animal doesn't want to do. I suspect that most of the time, cats simply can't be arsed to process static 2d imagery, because what's really the point of doing so -- but in this case, an overwhelming emotional imperative overrode that natural disinclination, proving that both the cognitive and the emotional capacity is there.) Anyhow, ever since witnessing that display of emotion, anybody who tells me that animals aren't conscious or don't have real feelings immediately gets ranked -- per my personal hierarchy of the spectrum of consciousness -- as being far below the level of that kitten.
  - 2y ago
alexey-salmin 2y ago
> I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. > I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. This approach wouldn't be inconsistent if you were cynically skeptical of human consciousness as well.

rogerclark 2y ago

That first sentence is one of the best-distilled insights I've ever read on HN.

namero999 2y ago
I concur, was about to express the same sentiment. I will steal this, sorry-not-sorry :)
throwitaway222 2y ago
I saw your comment and had to re-read it. Damn insightful yes.

defrost 2y ago

> I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place. Orthogonal to any argument about conciousness in cats, the most probable explanation is your cat was aware of your scent freshly attached to a book that previously didn't carry it. In my experience cats are acutely aware of scents, particularly known and especially unknown scents in new places. Had you been an unknown cat the chances are extremely high your cat would have urinated on your book.

themaninthedark 2y ago
My thoughts didn't go to scent but to environment change; things moving can signify the presence of another animal, one that is trying to hide itself. Could be an ambush predator.
- iovrthoughtthis 2y ago
  this could also be the reason humans notice changes
zeekaran 2y ago
Any time we move a piece of furniture, especially cat furniture that has been ignored for months, it becomes a new fascinating object. Most non-feral cats don't just go around pissing on everything.
- devbent 2y ago
  I had a dog growing up who'd try to move furniture back to its original location anytime we rearranged the room.
User23 2y ago
This reminds me of Feynman’s famous essay about the rat mazes and how the rats used all kinds of unexpected cues to navigate like the sound of their feet in the floor and the position of the room lights.
- matt-attack 2y ago
  Funny you should mention that Feynman story. Because probably more apropos is the story he talks about being able to identify which book on a shelf was recently manhandled - SOLELY BY THE SCENT. I kid you not it if you’re not familiar with that one but I distinctly recall that story from one of his books.
water-your-self 2y ago
I do not agree that the most probable explanation is scent, given the description provided by the comment you are responding to

coderenegade 2y ago

It's an easy trap to fall into for those who've never spent significant time around animals. After owning a few dogs you realize that they have their own unique experience of the world, and it's probably somewhere along the same continuum that we are. They know family, they go through a rebellious adolescent phase, they throw tantrums, get bored, excited, happy, horny, etc. I'll never know what it's like to experience the world through my nose the way my dog does, and he'll never know what it's like to read a book, but it doesn't mean that we don't love each other dearly. And I don't need to read his mind to know that, because it's plainly obvious in his actions and body language.

exe34 2y ago

the cat probably discovered a new smell (did you take the book to the kitchen? put it on the dinner table? on your lap?).

wruza 2y ago

Since you seem to be one of those who denied(?) consciousness of a cat, how do you conceptualize it? Something like “a cat is just a large finite automaton and I am not”? How do you draw the line? Through “soul”? Through “neocortex thickness”? Why a cat would not experience its life like you do when e.g. drugged or seriously drunk? I mean, cats aren’t drunk, but isn’t it easy to experience or at least imagine the “animal mode” in yourself? At times when you were startled or in rage or had sex like an animal, so that your intellectual parts didn’t work properly, did that pause your consciousness? Have you thought about it and if yes, what’s the answer? Also why is it so surprising to you that a cat noticed a change and… how exactly does this connect to yes/no consciousness? (These are all curiosity questions, I’m not an animal rights fighter or something like that.)

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Ability to reflect non-heuristically on stimuli and not fall back into stress-reflex behaviour like schizophrenia. A animal that things god/the government/everyone is after them like a mice, is less concious then somebody able test that hypothesis and leave that fear filled fever dream. Its a scale though, and in my opinion, with considerable overlap, depending on situation and adaption.
- wruza 2y ago
  Afaict, you are describing intelligence, not consciousness.
  - jfyi 2y ago
    I agree. I also agree with the article that "consciousness" is an overloaded term. I believe you and I would agree to it as something more akin to "sentience" but that is not the case for everyone. I feel this topic always seems to unknowingly devolve into disagreements on first principals.
    - wruza 2y ago
      Yes, that's common. But in everyone's defense, when I researched it myself, it gets as messy as itt in mainstream pholosophy. You can never be sure what a person really talks about and for five minutes it sounds reasonable, but then you meet a claim that yanks a carrying wall from your comprehension.

fallingknife 2y ago

The most cynical and disenchanted answer (and most likely to be true) is that animals are just as conscious as humans and that we just made all this nonsense up to justify our actions.

ninetyninenine 2y ago

People identifying as rationalists are also often misguided. It’s a common trope among programmers who think they’re smart and think their intelligence leads to them being logical and unbiased. I hate to break it to you but if you think you’re smart most likely you are more biased than normal.

qup 2y ago
If a person were actually smart, what would you expect their opinion of their own intelligence to be?
- RunSet 2y ago
  https://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/WhatIsIntelligenceAnywayByIsaacAsimov https://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/WhatIsIntelligenceA...

kevin42 2y ago

One of our cats was very old (18+) and sick. We made the choice to have her euthanized to end her suffering and the vet came to our house to do it. One of our other (male) cats loved her and always tried to cuddle her. My wife took the old kitty out of the room where they were cuddling, and after it was done she thought she would let him say goodbye. He got very upset at my wife and hissed at her for days. He's normally very sweet with my wife, but he was clearly distraught at losing his friend and seeing her dead. He didn't just think she was sleeping, and he blamed my wife. I've always known our cats have emotions and understand a lot about the world they're in, but after that experience, I have no doubt that they are conscious.

nkoren 2y ago
A friend of mine had two kittens -- siblings, who were very close to each other. One of them was hit by a car and killed. I had adored this kitten, so in memory of her I did a chalk drawing portrait of the kitten, and brought it over to my friend as gift, about a week after the kitten had died. The surviving sibling had, during that time, seemed somewhat morose and unresponsive, but also kind of cryptic in the way that cats can be. Hard to read. But when the surviving kitten saw my drawing, he began crying so piteously, reaching out and clawing towards the drawing -- and this went on for most of an hour -- that there was absolutely no mistaking the emotion behind it, and soon everybody else in the room was bawling as well. (Also, I was impressed that he responded to a drawing; it was a decent drawing, but quite abstract relative to (say) a photographic representation. Cats usually seem oblivious to photos in any case, and this is one of the things which confounds animal consciousness research: it's very hard to tell the difference between something that an animal can't do, and something an animal doesn't want to do. I suspect that most of the time, cats simply can't be arsed to process static 2d imagery, because what's really the point of doing so -- but in this case, an overwhelming emotional imperative overrode that natural disinclination, proving that both the cognitive and the emotional capacity is there.) Anyhow, ever since witnessing that display of emotion, anybody who tells me that animals aren't conscious or don't have real feelings immediately gets ranked -- per my personal hierarchy of the spectrum of consciousness -- as being far below the level of that kitten.
- 2y ago

alexey-salmin 2y ago

> I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. > I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. This approach wouldn't be inconsistent if you were cynically skeptical of human consciousness as well.