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That's an extremely niche application unlikely to be scaled down to anything smaller than a backpack like laser ring gyros. As such, this type of positioning ge

That's an extremely niche application unlikely to be scaled down to anything smaller than a backpack like laser ring gyros. As such, this type of positioning gear isn't for consumer use and is targeted mostly for underground surveying. (I worked for Trimble.)

ForHackernews 2y ago
...yeah? I don't think anyone has claimed they're developing this for consumer use.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  ... that could replace GPS That's the implied application, which is wrong.
  - rob74 2y ago
    ... and GPS was initially developed for - right, the military.
    - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
      GPS can and was miniaturized. LRGs and QGs aren't for retail use because they're very expensive, bulky, and largely unnecessary.
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        F(T) != F(T+1) I, for one, am glad to see people working to innovate along well-trodden paths.
        hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
        Yes, for their relevant applications. If you were a commercial spelunker or were the Ukrainian army needing to lob missiles into Russia that were impervious to encrypted GPS jamming, then you would gladly welcome your quantum overlords. Neither LRG or QG are ever going to be made into MEMS devices shoved into an iPhone. Its application is dead reckoning. For the use-case of navigation underground useable by everyday people, Skyhook-like services that rely on 5G UWB microcells are the most likely evolution beyond relying on Wi-Fi SSIDs and conventional cell towers for tower-assisted GNSS.
TooKool4This 2y ago
Why does it matter if it's not for consumer applications? GNSS is used for many more applications (and arguably more critical) than consumer applications (agriculture, mapping & surveying, aeronautics, shipping, etc.) Also just want to mention that, yes, integration errors accumulate when using intero-receptive sensors but if errors are small enough (white noise, various biases, sample rates, quantization, etc.) from the inertial sensors an odometry solution might be adequate until an extero-receptive sensor can localize the sensor within an external frame. This can shift the discussion from solving a problem that has no solution (i.e. how do I integrate a signal with white noise without any error) to an engineering problem (i.e. what error parameters allow the odometry to be accurate within x% over some timeframe). There was interesting work DARPA was sponsoring around the above idea that you can read more about here: https://www.darpa.mil/program/micro-technology-for-positioning-navigation-and-timing https://www.darpa.mil/program/micro-technology-for-positioni... >The end goals of the TIMU program are the demonstration of a single-chip IMU which maintains an accumulated position error of less than 1 nmi/hour with device volume of less than 10 mm3 and power consumption of less than 200 mW. (My job is related to estimating location of things).
- gridspy 2y ago
  nmi - Nautical mile (1 nmi/hour mentioned above) Today the international nautical mile is defined as 1,852 metres (about 6,076 ft; 1.151 mi). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautical_mile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautical_mile
gnatman 2y ago
When one of the potential customers in this "extremely niche" space has an $800 billion annual budget, you don't lose sleep over it.
forgetfreeman 2y ago
Underground surveying or jam-proof guidance for long range ordinance?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ForHackernews 2y ago

...yeah? I don't think anyone has claimed they're developing this for consumer use.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
... that could replace GPS That's the implied application, which is wrong.
- rob74 2y ago
  ... and GPS was initially developed for - right, the military.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
    GPS can and was miniaturized. LRGs and QGs aren't for retail use because they're very expensive, bulky, and largely unnecessary.
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      F(T) != F(T+1) I, for one, am glad to see people working to innovate along well-trodden paths.
      - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
        Yes, for their relevant applications. If you were a commercial spelunker or were the Ukrainian army needing to lob missiles into Russia that were impervious to encrypted GPS jamming, then you would gladly welcome your quantum overlords. Neither LRG or QG are ever going to be made into MEMS devices shoved into an iPhone. Its application is dead reckoning. For the use-case of navigation underground useable by everyday people, Skyhook-like services that rely on 5G UWB microcells are the most likely evolution beyond relying on Wi-Fi SSIDs and conventional cell towers for tower-assisted GNSS.

TooKool4This 2y ago

Why does it matter if it's not for consumer applications? GNSS is used for many more applications (and arguably more critical) than consumer applications (agriculture, mapping & surveying, aeronautics, shipping, etc.) Also just want to mention that, yes, integration errors accumulate when using intero-receptive sensors but if errors are small enough (white noise, various biases, sample rates, quantization, etc.) from the inertial sensors an odometry solution might be adequate until an extero-receptive sensor can localize the sensor within an external frame. This can shift the discussion from solving a problem that has no solution (i.e. how do I integrate a signal with white noise without any error) to an engineering problem (i.e. what error parameters allow the odometry to be accurate within x% over some timeframe). There was interesting work DARPA was sponsoring around the above idea that you can read more about here: https://www.darpa.mil/program/micro-technology-for-positioning-navigation-and-timing https://www.darpa.mil/program/micro-technology-for-positioni... >The end goals of the TIMU program are the demonstration of a single-chip IMU which maintains an accumulated position error of less than 1 nmi/hour with device volume of less than 10 mm3 and power consumption of less than 200 mW. (My job is related to estimating location of things).

gridspy 2y ago
nmi - Nautical mile (1 nmi/hour mentioned above) Today the international nautical mile is defined as 1,852 metres (about 6,076 ft; 1.151 mi). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautical_mile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautical_mile

gnatman 2y ago

When one of the potential customers in this "extremely niche" space has an $800 billion annual budget, you don't lose sleep over it.

forgetfreeman 2y ago

Underground surveying or jam-proof guidance for long range ordinance?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]